Monday, December 21, 2009



Mary and Joseph post-sex billboard upsets Catholics



"Progressives" at work in new Zealand. Mary remained a virgin according to Catholic doctrine.
"An inner-city Auckland church, trying to promote debate over Christianity, has given up on a controversial billboard which made international headlines.

The billboard, featuring a dejected Joseph and a quizzical Mary in bed, with the message, "Poor Joseph. God was a hard act to follow", has been attacked four times since it was erected outside the Anglican church on Thursday. After the latest attack, by an elderly woman with a knife, the church said the billboard would not be replaced.

The vicar of St Matthew-in-the-City, Glynn Cardy, said: "[The billboard was] attacked by a knife-wielding Christian fanatic who was then apprehended by a group of homeless people who care about our church. Later in the evening, another group of fanatics ripped it down.

The church had no regrets about fuelling discussion about God: "We are glad that discussion about Santa, food, and present-buying was momentarily usurped by a discussion about Jesus."

Source

A bit of direct action there. Must be learning from the Muslims

78 comments:

Anonymous said...

Personally I don't see how the billboard is offensive. It's kind of funny. Not funny-ha-ha but still on the lighter side of life.

Use the Name, Luke said...

This was supposedly put up by a church?

Well, it's good to know what church to warn people to avoid. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God had sex with Mary, but that it was a miraculous conception.

Mary asked the angel, “How can this be, since I have not been intimate with a man?”

The angel replied to her: The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the holy One to be born will be called the Son of God.

(Luke 1:34–35 HCSB)

The Holy Spirit is NOT physical.

It's also ironic that the head of a "church" would call a Christian who takes the Bible seriously a "fanatic". Sounds a lot like how the Pharisees and Saducees reacted to Jesus. Church leaders are supposed to be teaching people to be "Christian fanatics":

“Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?”

He said to him, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and most important commandment.

(Matthew 22:36–38 HCSB)

I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
(Revelation 3:15–16 NAS95)

BTW, the Roman Catholic doctrine is wrong. Mary did not remain a virgin after Jesus was born:

When Joseph got up from sleeping, he did as the Lord’s angel had commanded him. He married her but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.
(Matthew 1:24–25 HCSB)

"Know her intimately" is how the Bible describes having sex. In today's vernacular, it would say "Joseph didn't sleep with Mary until she gave birth to a son." In other words, what this verse is saying is that Joseph didn't have sex with Mary until after Jesus was born, then he did.

Joseph and Mary had at least 6 children together:

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him.
(Mark 6:3 NAS95)

Anonymous said...

Shoudn't Jesus be a woman? A clone of Mary? Since the Holy Spirit is NOT physical, where did the sperm come from? Yet more tales of fantasy.

Menoichius said...

Had the billboard featured Muslim beliefs, they probably would have flipped out and killed some people. One of the best things about Christians (and the few Jews that I have experience with) is that we're not afraid to laugh at ourselves... I really hope we're not losing that.

Anonymous said...

The atheists and other godless cretins of the Left never stop trying to get attention. Their on-going attacks on Christianity simply prove they are in fact, Satans children. The harder they deny it, the more obvious it becomes.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, that would be a problem if Satin existed.

MikeTheInfidel said...

You people DO realize that, according to the Bible, JESUS HAD BROTHERS AND SISTERS, right? BIOLOGICAL SIBLINGS?

Mary was no virgin.

burner said...

The atheists and other godless cretins of the Left never stop trying to get attention.

Yeah,a giant atheist conspiracy made that vicar put that billboard up *faceplam*

Ollie said...

Has anyone ever considered that the bible is propaganda sent by God to try and get as many people to believe in him, when in fact he's the evil one, and it's the Devil who is kind?

I know this question will offend the more pious of Christians, and for that I am sorry, truly sorry, because I don't care to offend anyone. But I think it's a fair warning to offer. Politicians have had less power than God has, and they've been successfully able to lie their way into wars and such like. Plus any evidence posited as proof of God from the bible is circular, like "the universe is proof of God" but the universe could have been created by anyone! We really don't know. I think scientists are working, but can they actually know if it was God?

Let's face it, if you're a humble, awesome, wonderful, loving person who has everyone in his heart, do you make whopping donations to charities and demand your name be scribed all over the walls and literature and punish anyone who disagrees with you, or do you remain anonymous, while never ceasing your efforts to do your best to help people? I am not advocating the Devil, because I have no clue what the Devil is truly like, but the terribly unfair fact is he has never had a chance to give his story! I earnestly believe that if he was as manipulative and as evil as the bible makes him out to be, he would have written an alternative book that paints God negatively and gives us reason to doubt. He hasn't. The only thing that gives me doubt is the bible itself, which was written by God himself, and isn't that alarming?

With regards to the Mary and Joseph billboard, I think what would be good would be to get historians and scientists to analyze the bible with objectivity so that we can first see if God is legitimate first, before castigating anyone who turns a skeptical eye at the narrative.

Anonymous said...

I find it more than slightly hypocritical of you to only support free speech when you agree with the message.

Bobby said...

The problem isn't the speech, the problem is the billboard company. They had the power to reject that billboard, a private company can engage in content-based censorship.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"Yeah, that would be a problem if Satin existed."

You are proof that she does exist.

Anonymous said...

Doesn't satin exist? - was it polyester in disguise?

Use the Name, Luke said...

"I think what would be good would be to get historians and scientists to analyze the bible with objectivity so that we can first see if God is legitimate first,"

That's entirely appropriate. It has been done. My favorite layman's level book on this kind of analysis is I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. They follow a step by step process of examining exactly this question. They start with establishing the nature of truth, the looking at evidence for the existence of a god in the physical sciences, examining whether miracles are possible based on the previous step, then on to historical evidence, checking the reliability of the
Bible against historical evidence, and finally heads to the conclusion (based only on what can be reasonably shown from previous steps) that Christianity is true.

There are also more advanced books such as The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology which examines the evidence for the existence of god based only on what we know of the universe by the leading experts in each of those areas.

There's also The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict which is the end result of a scholarly attempt to disprove Christianity once and for all.

"before castigating anyone who turns a skeptical eye at the narrative."

What would you think of a salesperson who always told people to buy a competitor's product? What would you think of a math teacher who was telling his students that math can't be right? What would you think of a musician who was claiming that music doesn't exist? What would you think of a football player who's helping the other team to win?

This is a (supposedly) Christian Church which, by definition, is supposed to be proclaiming Christianity to the world. So they're either a Christian Church which is sawing off the very branch they're sitting on, or they should stop pretending that they're Christians and just admit that they're actually atheists pretending to be christians to undermine Christianity.

In short, if you claim to believe something, then that's what you should be teaching. They're teaching something other than what they claim to believe.

Stan B said...

1. Jesus "brothers and sisters" may or may not have been "step brothers" and "step sisters" or even "cousins." There is no differentiation between the words.

2. The Church has declared that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Those who don't agree with the Church's teaching on this subject are wrong, and should take that up with God. Those who don't believe in God - you're on your own.

3. The word in the Bible "until" which Use the Name, Luke is so fond of is also translated as "up to" without damaging the exegesis. "until" implies after, "up to" does NOT make any such implication.

4. The poster is patently offensive - and while most people don't care what you say about Jesus - don't mess with Jesus' Mother.

Anonymous said...

No wonder Joseph felt humiliated, he was a cuckold then had to support the cuckoo in the nest because Alpha Male God told him to! How's that for divine justice.

Anonymous said...

"The Church has declared that Mary was a perpetual virgin."

The Church also said that the sun orbited the earth. We know now that that was complete bullshit. If only we can go back a perform a few DNA tests...

Anonymous said...

"The Church has declared that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Those who don't agree with the Church's teaching on this subject are wrong, and should take that up with God."

No, they should take it up with the Church. Show me where God said anything at all on the topic. Everything that "God said" was actually said by people who *claimed* to be speaking *for* God.

I could say I was speaking for God, too. If I did, how could you prove I was lying?

That is why I do not take all the hoorah about religion seriously. If God wanted to communicate with me, or with any of us, he'd have absolutely no difficulty in doing so without recruiting some third party. So why should I listen to all these arrogant, conceited preachers who think they are so very, very special that the Lord God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, has to ask *them* to be His mouthpieces?

Use the Name, Luke said...

I'll take these slightly out of order:

"1. Jesus "brothers and sisters" may or may not have been "step brothers" and "step sisters" or even "cousins." There is no differentiation between the words."

The word is adelphoi, which is the plural, masculine form of adelphos. From Thayer's Greek Lexicon (edited slightly for brevity):

"adelfos, adelfou, ho (from a copulative and delfus, from the same womb) (from Homer down);

1. a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother): Matt. 1:2; 4:18, and often. That ‘the brethren of Jesus,’ Matt. 12:46,47; 13:55f; Mark 6:3 (in the last two passages also sisters); Luke 8:19f; John 2:12; 7:3; Acts 1:14; Gal. 1:19; 1 Cor. 9:5, are neither sons of Joseph by a wife married before Mary (which is the account in the Apocryphal Gospels), nor cousins, the children of Alphaeus or Cleophas (i.e. Clopas) and Mary a sister of the mother of Jesus (the current opinion among the doctors of the church since Jerome and Augustine, according to that use of language by which
adelfos like the Hebrew ’āh denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Gen. 14:16; 1 Sam. 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chr. 23:2, etc.), but own brothers, born after Jesus, is clear principally from Matt. 1:25; Luke 2:7 — where, had Mary borne no other children after Jesus, instead of huion prōtotokon, the expression huion monogenē would have been used, as well as from Acts 1:14, cf. John 7:5, where the Lord’s brethren are distinguished from the apostles."

Here's the context of that verse from Acts:

When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
(Acts 1:13–14 NAS95)

In other words, it lists out the disciples by name then finishes with his family.

"3. The word in the Bible "until" which Use the Name, Luke is so fond of is also translated as "up to" without damaging the exegesis. "until" implies after, "up to" does NOT make any such implication."

"Until" being synonymous with "up to" is correct. But the implication is not in the English words chosen for the translation, but in the situation being described. Even though Joseph, as Mary's husband, had the right to be intimate with her, he chose to not exercise that right while she was pregnant with Jesus. To expect that he would not exercise that right after that point would be even more unusual than his initial restraint. Thus, if he had exercised such final restraint, it would have been even more noteworthy than a mere 9 months of self control. In that case, the stated limitation ("until she gave birth to a son") would have been far more limiting than the reality. Therefore, it is more reasonable to conclude that he set aside his rights as a husband for a limited time (and the limit is stated), and once that limit had passed, then he did exercise his right to be intimate with Mary.

"2. The Church has declared that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Those who don't agree with the Church's teaching on this subject are wrong, and should take that up with God."

When what the "church" says disagrees with the Bible, which takes precedence? I know the Bible's answer to this. Do you?

Use the Name, Luke said...

"So why should I listen to all these arrogant, conceited preachers who think they are so very, very special that the Lord God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, has to ask *them* to be His mouthpieces?"

This actually relates directly to Stan B's authority claims for the Roman Catholic Church.

God does not expect us to blindly accept what someone tells us. For example see, Exodus 4:1-9, Judges 6:36-40, Luke 5:17-24, Acts 5:12-16. This is by no means an exhaustive list, but these passages all clearly demonstrate that God does not expect us to be unable to distinguish between his genuine messengers and fakers. He gives them a form of credentials which no human being can fake: the ability to perform bona fide miracles. Someone without God's authority can point to what someone with genuine authority has said (and the writings of those with such authority were collected into what we now call The Bible), but we cannot claim to speak for God on our own.

To my knowledge, no one in the Roman Catholic Magesterium has demonstrated that God has given them the authority to make such pronouncements.

Anonymous said...

Moderate christians should not read this. Christians that think that others who don't share the same superstitious beliefs are "evil" or are going to "hell" should should definitely read this. (Three paragraphs and a conclusion- the first, philosophical; the second, criticism of the old testament; the third, criticism of the new testament; enjoy)

Why did this god look on the earth with silent indifference for the 200,000+/- years that human beings have walked the earth and suffered from and committed war, famine, disease, rape, genocide, murder, etc. etc. etc.? Why, in a time when the chinese were developing eastern civilization, when the greeks were starting western civilization, did this god BRIEFLY reveal himself to just ONE superstitious, cattle sacrificing tribe of people that (apparently) couldn't figure out that one shouldn't murder, steal, etc. without it being written down (because a talking burning bush told them) Why, if this god is omnipotent, is he a jealous, violent, emo that states his word will never change, and then changes it dramatically as though all of creation were "winged" at the last minute by a procrastinating, adolescent cosmic deity?

If the bible is true, then the creator of the universe endorsed ethnic cleansing (Exodus 34:11-14), genocide (Leviticus 26:7-9), slavery (Exodus 21:2-6 and Ephesians 6:5-6), the murder of gays (Leviticus 20:13), adulterers (Leviticus 20:10 ), non-believers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13), believers of other religions/superstitions (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 and Exodus 22:19), and even children (Isaiah 14:21, Hosea 9:11-16, Ezekiel 9:5-7). And Jesus says that every letter of the old testament will be upheld until the end of time (Matthew 5:17-18). This god is a nasty character. I'm glad he was imagined by superstitious, cattle sacrificing desert people from the bronze age that thought snakes and bushes could talk, that the human race began when we were wished into being, whose children committed incest to keep the human race going (and so on -and somehow evolved anyway into the numerous races and ethnicities on the planet within a relatively short period of time), that well behaved carnivores as well as all the other animals on the planet lived within walking distance to noah's house, that one's unethical actions (all of them, whenever, no matter how horrific) can be scape-goated on an ancient human sacrifice, and that an omnipotent being would create self-imaged 'intelligent' beings that all deserve eternal torture unless they actually believes the correct silly story. I'm glad there's as much evidence for this god as any of the thousands of others.

[continued]

Anonymous said...

[continued]

When Jesus wasn't practicing witchcraft (i.e. "healing" a couple people like a common charlatan, as opposed to wiping out disease like a proper deity), he was giving his opinion on moral guidance. His main moral philosophy was the golden rule. But he plagiarized Confusius, who authored the golden rule centuries before Christ. (I mean, if he were in any relation to an omnipotent cosmic deity, he should have at least cited his sources.) He tells his disciples to turn the other cheek, but he also tells them to slay his enemies before him (Luke 19:27). He says that those that call others 'fools' will be in danger of hell fire (Mt. 5:22), but then Jesus calls people 'fool' on several occasions (Mt 23:17, Luke 11:40; 24:25). Also, there were over 500 witnesses to the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:6). Each of them would have experienced arguably the most important event in human history. Of the thousands of deities that man has asserted to be true without evidence, the less than one-tenth of one percent that this one represents must be true. And apparently the 'key' to the universe and goal of every human being is to believe this particular story..... That event would be vividly etched into each of their minds for the rest of their lives. With the kind of enthusiasm one would have after that experience, you would think that at least some of them would write something about it down within a few hours? -days? -weeks? No. A whole generation passes before anything is written down. Nearly three decades after the fact is the first gospel written, and the rest up to six decades afterwards, (religioustolerance.org) -by people who never saw or heard a word Jesus had to say (unless of course the gospels lived at least twice the average age of people during that time, and THEN, they decided they should write some of this stuff down).

The charlatans that pushed these stories have created the largest fraud ever perpetrated by man. And by largest, I mean in shear volume -as the absurdities and claims made are no more outlandish than the thousands of other deities and religions that societies have alleged to be true and believed in.

Use the Name, Luke said...

Talk about imposing your own biases on what you read!

::: walks away shaking head sadly :::

Anonymous said...

And keep on walking... far... away.

"Talk about imposing your own biases on what you read!"

That's EXACTLY what you do, boy.

Use the Name, Luke said...

...says the guy who thinks every serious historian on the planet (both amateur and professional) has no idea how to accurately determine what actually happened. Instead, you want them to abandon techniques which have been honed over hundreds of years and do things your way (which would mean you couldn't actually know anything about anything).

So, do things your way? Or do analysis the way real scientists do? (BTW, "real scientists" includes all fields of study -- such as history, archaeology, linguistics, cosmology, biology, etc. -- and all views of religion, including atheists.) That's not a hard choice... at all.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
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The Minneapolis Vip Tribune reported Rice visited the Steadman Clinic in Vail, Colorado on Monday where he had the advance on, confirmed by benefit of Rice in a extract message to the paper.

Rice has been on the physically incompetent to despatch eccentric hint since the start of training group scheduled to the disablement, which he thitherto stated occurred during Minnesota's hinder to the Supplemental Orleans Saints in the NFC Championship Regatta prototype January.

The scrutinization said Rice was looked at at bracelets three specialists during the offseason, and that two had suggested surgery at the time.

The 23-year-old fourth-year pro had a breakout holocaust up taking passes from Brett Favre bearing year and earned Pro Whirl honors in bitchiness despite of hauling in 83 balls owing 1,312 yards and eight touchdowns in 16 games.

Rice was the 44th concluded aggregation in the 2007 balk exposed visible of South Carolina after a standout sophomore season for the Gamecocks.

In accrual to Rice's misfortune, the together is dealing with the haleness of well-built receiver Percy Harvin, who continues to vitality autocratic migraine headaches that from caused him to passion recompense most of camp.

The Vikings responded Tuesday looming signing veteran weighty receiver Javon Walker, who vow submit book his ninth NFL brio up and be reunited with quarterback Brett Favre.

Walker started a reassuring foam in Country-like Bay after the Packers took him in the earliest all about in 2002 commission of Florida State. He played four seasons alongside Favre and situate together his finest year as a pro in 2004 when he racked up partnership bests with 1,382 yards 12 touchdowns and 89 receptions.

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