A new pretext for an attack on Christianity
A home used for a Bible study is being equated with a church
"Pastor David Jones and his wife Mary have been told that they cannot invite friends to their San Diego, Calif. home for a bible study — unless they are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to San Diego County.
"On Good Friday we had an employee from San Diego County come to our house, and inform us that the bible study that we were having was a religious assembly, and in violation of the code in the county." David Jones told FOX News. "We told them this is not really a religious assembly — this is just a bible study with friends. We have a meal, we pray, that was all," Jones said. A few days later, the couple received a written warning that cited "unlawful use of land," ordering them to either "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit," the couple's attorney Dean Broyles told San Diego news station 10News. But the major use permit could cost the Jones' thousands of dollars just to have a few friends over.
For David and Mary Jones, it's about more than a question of money. "The government may not prohibit the free exercise of religion," Broyles told FOX News. "I believe that our Founding Fathers would roll over in their grave if they saw that here in the year 2009, a pastor and his wife are being told that they cannot hold a simple bible study in their own home." "The implications are great because it’s not only us that’s involved," Mary Jones said. "There are thousands and thousands of bible studies that are held all across the country. What we’re interested in is setting a precedent here — before it goes any further — and that we have it settled for the future."
The couple is planning to dispute the county's order this week. If San Diego County refuses to allow the pastor and his wife to continue gathering without acquiring a permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.
Source
A clear 1st Amendment violation
23 comments:
The issue in question is not whether I can have a few friends over for a regularly scheduled Bible Study, Poker Game, or even Orgy.
It should be - when have I gone from "private home" to "public nuisance."
The fact that it is a Bible Study does not negate the traffic, parking, and other disruptions to the neighborhood which may or may not be occurring.
True, 15 people does not sound like that many - but if each drives their own car, that's 15 additional cars in the neighborhood every week. I don't know what sort of posh, 15 car garages other people may have, but I have trouble finding parking for 4 guys playing poker once a week.
So, the question should have nothing to do with Religion - upon which grounds the Pastor will obviously win - but with public access and public accommodation, which he's not so clear cut on.
Obviously someone has filed a complaint about this - I don't think the city just runs around willy-nilly looking for impromptu Religious Gatherings to persecute.
Stan, following your "logic", the local govt. should take the same action with anyone who has a social gathering at their home. Having the family over for holiday dinner? Buy a permit or call the cops! Of course, if this were the Soviet Union of old, your point would be understandable. But we're not that place. Yet.
There's a story of a swingers party in texas that attracts 100 people, the city is trying to shut it down.
http://www.yourtango.com/20072715/texas-swingers-clubs-being-outlawed.html
The city and the neighbors have a point when it comes to parking. But, whether people are praying in the home or having an orgy is nobody's business and the city is wrong for approaching the problem from that perspective.
Stan,
There is a video from the local tv station on YouTube that says that the cars normally park on the pastor's property. However, on one night, a car parked in the cul-de-sac on which the pastor's house is located.
A visitor to another home claimed that the one of the Bible study people ran into his car. So the guy filed a complaint with every governmental agency he could.
The neighbors have no complaints with the Bible study. They are the ones that would be the most affected and they don't care because the cars mostly park on the private property of the pastor's house.
If the cars were blocking other people in their driveways or something similar, I would agree that there would be a "public accomodation" concern. Yet even if the people are parking in the cul-de-sac, they are parking on public land.
There are two issues here. One is the permit for a religious gathering which is clearly against the establishment clause. The second is the right of people to assemble peacefully in their homes.
There is no intrusion into the lives of others in this case.
It is simply a case of a whiney person trying to use the government because he feels wronged.
Stan B:
You may have had a point if I hadn't read the story. The county representative had come out and started questioning them about what they were doing in the house. Questions like, "Were you praying?", "Do you say amen?", "Do you say praise the lord?" Not to mention the fact that the pastor already asked his neighbors if he was creating a nuisance. After the line of questioning posed by the county people, I would venture a guess that this had everything to do with religion.
There is a house on a corner near where I live. When i moved in 2 years ago this was one of the nicest houses in the neighborhood with the greenest lawn you have ever seen. Apparently the owner fell into some rough times and the place went into foreclosure. the bank took over and sold it for less than 1/3 was was owed on the house. the new owner rents the house out. This house now houses at least 15 people. I say AT LEAST 15 people because there are 12 cars parked in what used to be a beautiful lawn. There are so many cars in fact that they have to park in the street next to the neighbors on both sides. Often times they will block the driveway. Its been this was for 6 months and no one can do anything about it. Maybe we just need to tell the police they are praying in there without a license.
Sounds like the pastor has one of those phone call-making, whining atheists on his block. Time for a good old-fashioned "barn" burning which will rid the neighborhood of such vermin.
Sean,
"This house now houses at least 15 people."
Maybe you oughtt to either move out of "Little Mexico" or invite in the Klan. :)
Sorry, but it is ALL about a county that is strapped for cash trying to squeeze as much as it can form its residents. Shameful.
"Sounds like the pastor has one of those phone call-making, whining atheists on his block. Time for a good old-fashioned "barn" burning which will rid the neighborhood of such vermin."
You sound so Christ-like.
NOT
I bet if a group of muslims were having friday prayer services, no questions would be asked. i wonder who the county officials supported for president.How do you like your hope and change now?
Not a barn burning, this kind of burning:
"If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;
For you will heap burning coals on his head,"
Proverbs 25:21-22a
First - this is a REGULARLY SCHEDULED event - not a "one off" like Thanksgiving, Christmas, or even an occasional get together.
Second - IMHO, the county will (and should) lose the Religious side of the argument, for a variety of reasons not the least of which being that this is the free exercise of religion in a private home.
Third - It does sound like an aggrieved neighbor making trouble for someone after they feel wronged. The neighbor just happened to find the right bureaucrat with nothing but time and a need to justify his/her payroll spot.
If the county treats Religious Gatherings separately from normal, everyday activities, they should be sued into the ground.
I wonder how many Obama Precinct Captains who held regularly scheduled meetings among large groups of campaign workers in their homes faced (or will face in the re-election campaign) similar "Major Use" requirements? I'll wager the number requires no fingers to count.
"You sound so Christ-like.
NOT"
God helps those who help themselves. If you're waiting for Christ to rid the world of evil, you will be very disappointed. Evil is in man, and only man can eliminate it.
"God helps those who help themselves."
Where does that come from? It's not in the Bible.
"If you're waiting for Christ to rid the world of evil, you will be very disappointed. Evil is in man, and only man can eliminate it."
Totally contrary to what the Bible teaches. One of its major themes (if not THE major theme) is that man is completely incapable of eliminating evil and that only God can do so.
So why doesn't he?
For starters, if avoiding evil was the entire goal, God would have prevented its occurrence in the first place. But He didn't, therefore, it's reasonable to conclude that there's a good reason why God allows it.
One theory is that God wanted us to develop certain characteristics which can only occur if evil exists. For example, courage, honor, patience, etc.
While this is just a theory and the Bible doesn't explicitly say this is the case, it is consistent with what the Bible does say. For example, it states that removing evil too soon will actually damage christians as a whole:
He presented another parable to them: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while people were sleeping, his enemy came, sowed weeds among the wheat, and left. When the plants sprouted and produced grain, then the weeds also appeared. The landowner’s slaves came to him and said, ‘Master, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Then where did the weeds come from?’
“‘An enemy did this!’ he told them. “‘So, do you want us to go and gather them up?’ the slaves asked him.
“‘No,’ he said. ‘When you gather up the weeds, you might also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At harvest time I’ll tell the reapers: Gather the weeds first and tie them in bundles to burn them, but store the wheat in my barn.’”
(Matthew 13:24-30 HCSB)
One reason for His delay is that He wants to give every person as much opportunity to come to Him as possible.
The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9 HCSB)
The promise discussed here is the promise that God would put an end to evil as a whole.
But that's not to say that God is just letting evil have free reign. He does limit what can happen as demonstrated in Job:
“Very well,” the LORD told Satan, “everything he owns is in your power. However, you must not lay a hand on Job himself.”
(Job 1:12a HCSB)
“Very well,” the LORD told Satan, “he is in your power; only spare his life.”
(Job 2:6 HCSB)
Paul also made a case for God's restrictions on evil:
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to humanity. God is faithful and He will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation He will also provide a way of escape, so that you are able to bear it.
(1 Corinthians 10:13 HCSB)
Even though God is not yet putting an end to evil as a whole, He is using as a means to cause growth among His followers—as spiritual fertilizer, if you will:
I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
(Philippians 1:6 HCSB)
For they disciplined us for a short time based on what seemed good to them, but He does it for our benefit, so that we can share His holiness.
(Hebrews 12:10 HCSB)
And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, growing into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
(Ephesians 4:11-13 HCSB)
The whole building is being fitted together in Him and is growing into a holy sanctuary in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for God’s dwelling in the Spirit.
(Ephesians 2:21-22 HCSB)
In short, though God could put an end to evil right now, He has stated that He has a purpose, and ending evil early would actually disrupt that purpose. Instead, He is making use of it.
You planned evil against me; God planned it for good to bring about the present result—the survival of many people.
(Genesis 50:20 HCSB)
So using that argument, evil people are serving God's purpose, so people like Hitler and Stalin are necessary to God's purpose, so they shouldn't be blamed ???
"So using that argument, evil people are serving God's purpose, so people like Hitler and Stalin are necessary to God's purpose, so they shouldn't be blamed ???"
---What do you think God is? A butler that picks up after you? A servant that makes your bed, cooks your meals and drives you to work?
God is not a babysitter, His job is not to give us everything we want lest we become spoiled. Remember the exodus from Egypt? Remember how part of the group became wicked and ended worshiping idols after all God had done for them?
If there's no pharaoh to defeat, no wars to win, no rebuilding after a hurricane, no sickness to conquer and no ambition to fulfill, then what's the point?
That's the fallacy of socialism, they give you everything so you have no incentive to achieve anything. It's like studying an MBA with the knowledge that you won't land a $100k job.
Sounds like an excuse for masochism! But you are just begging the question.
"Sounds like an excuse for masochism! But you are just begging the question."
---The whole point of life is overcoming adversity, which means going through some pain. It's just like the military and basic training, they have to break you down to build you up.
That's like saying the point of volcanoes is to spew lava and ash. You are confusing point and effect. Humans and human societies may have developed and improved through overcoming adversity, but that is an effect that doesn't justify the cause. You are making a virtue out of necessity.
Adversity also factors into the growth of societies. It never grows in a straight line, but advances and decays in waves. Three steps forward, two steps back in between. In fact, that may well be how everything grows. Grow, then pare back what doesn't help. Grow further, prune again. And so on.
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