SCOTUS to rule in military funeral protest case
We read:
"The Supreme Court will review whether anti-gay protests at funerals of American soldiers are protected by the First Amendment, taking up the appeal of a Maryland man who won and then had reversed a $10 million verdict against the small Kansas church that conducts the demonstrations.
The case will seek to balance a group's free speech rights with the rights of private individuals to be protected from unwanted demonstrations and defamatory remarks. A federal appeals court said the church's protests were "utterly distasteful" but protected because they were related to "matters of public concern."
The funeral protest case is brought by a Maryland father whose son's 2006 funeral in Westminster was picketed by members of the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kan. Westboro pastor Fred W. Phelps Sr. contends that the deaths of American soldiers are punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuality and has organized nearly 43,000 protests since 1991, according to the church's Web site.
Source
Deranged though Phelps is, I think his right to say what he thinks is undoubted under the 1st Amendment. And if that right is upheld by SCOTUS it will be a bright shining example of American tolerance that every American could point to with pride. Tolerating people you agree with is easy. It is the likes of Phelps who put tolerance to the test and show if there is any real tolerance in a nation. All countries in Europe would fail the test.
43 comments:
YOUR RIGHT HE DOES HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY WHAT HE THINKS BUT NOT AT A PRIVATE FUNERAL, GO MARCH ON WASHINGTON
Religious convictions + self-rightousness inevitably lead some to egregious behavior (exploiting the right to free speech).
I agree with Anon. This group should have the right to free speech but a funeral is a private family affair and not the appropriate time for this type of demonstration.
Cross burning is political speech too but the the court upheld the banning of those. I personally equate the protests of Phelps to be the same as inciting a riot and as such should be banned.
Cross burning is political speech too but the the court upheld the banning of those.
The court upheld bans on cross burning because it is a specific threat.
Such is not the case with Phelps.
Phelps wasn't protesting at the funeral, he was protesting outside of the cemetery on public property.
As much as I loathe what he says and stands for, his speech seems to be protected.
HOWEVER!
While his signage at the protest was not specific to the young man killed and his family, his rhetoric on the web site was. It was directed at the young man.
I hope the SCOTUS ties the two actions together and allows the judgment to stand, but I suspect they won't.
And to be honest, they probably shouldn't.
When Phelps protests at a specific person's funeral, it absolutely ties the specific deceased person to the more general protest because he is specifically targeting the family of the dead soldier. If it was a fallen police officer, a doctor, a salesman, etc. Phelps WOULD NOT SHOW UP. But ONLY because the deceased is a U.S. soldier, Phelps considers him to be directly involved and ultimately partially responsible for what Phelps is protesting against.
Thank God for the Patriot Guard and their supporters!
Of course, if throwing cotton balls is a hate crime, holding a "hate" protest at a funeral should count too.
Use stupid laws against stupid people.
He has the right to say it even on private property. But must leave if he is ordered to.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Religious convictions + self-rightousness inevitably lead some to egregious behavior (exploiting the right to free speech).
3:29 AM
------------------------
Any convictions and self righteousness can inevitably lead to egregious behavior. Surprised you limited it to 'religious' convictions.
I am Jewish and I loathe these people and their views, and especially their "Pastor", but they do have a right to free speech as long as they do not violate the rights of another person. Your rights end where another person's begin.
"Freedom, like pure, clean water, is essential to our way of life. But remember what too much water can do."
Anon 5:27 said;
"The court upheld bans on cross burning because it is a specific threat."
Specific to whom? And, that Phelps was protesting at the funeral of one particular soldier, is specific.
It might be protected under the constitution, but that doesn't mean he has a right to harass people with impunity, which is what he's doing.
So while as "free speech" it may be protected, could still be punishable under some other law.
This is a crucial issue and one which we here at TT should all think carefully about.
It ties together two fundamental freedoms in the First Amendment and does so in the most confronting way.
If you are truly for freedom of speech and religion, no matter how loathesome you consider these people and their message, you will support the public protest on public sidewalks outside funerals, weddings, bar mitzvahs and baby showers.
I really think this is a case of “fighting words”. The protest at a family funeral with the expess purpose of saying that that person (even indirectly) deserves to be dead cannot be held to be protected speech. At such an emtionally charged event such actions are an incitement to violence, and an assault as a reaction to such boarderline libelous or slanderous actions can very easily be expected. Alternatively if they did this randomly at a cemetary, and not sought to do it at funerals, it would be a case of protected speech.
"Convictions and self-righteousness"?
The man might be a raving ratbag, but could we please lay off the word, "self-righteous" unless he has actually made comments about his own virtue, compared to the lack in others.
It seems to be a common trend that if a person voices strong opinions, and does not live up to them, he is called a hypocrite, but if he does live up to them, he is called self-righteous.
Malcolm:
It's only "self righteous" because the loon and his band are obviously saying their way of life and thoughts about it are right, and people not agreeing with him are wrong. Which is not to disagree with you, in general, about the way verbiage is tossed around.
Anon 3:57 PM wrote:
Specific to whom?
To the person on whose property the cross is being burned upon. The cross burning case the SCOTUS decided said that cross burning is acceptable free speech. Cross burning as a means of intimidation is not. You can burn a cross on your property. You can't burn it on the front lawn of some person who has not given you permission as it is a form of intimidation and falls under "fighting words."
And, that Phelps was protesting at the funeral of one particular soldier, is specific.
Phelps' message was not against the soldier, it was against the US military and policies in general. The District Court strongly condemned what was said as being disgusting, but as Phelps and his follows did not mention the fallen soldier specifically on their placards, their speech fell under protected political speech.
And yes this is especially noticeable with *religious* conviction, as that goes right to the "soul" (no pun intended) of far more people than say political convictions or some cause like animal rights or green activism or indeed gay activism.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Anons 12:55 PM and 7:00 PM that Mr. Phelps is within his rights of free speech. It's one of the prices we have to pay for our freedoms.
I don't like Phelps' methods, and as an evangelical Christian, I believe that his message is twisted, but by legally preventing him from speaking, you open the door for preventing "legitimate" protests and speech.
Personally, I think he just needs to be taken behind the shed and dealt with properly.
On the matter of Freedom of Speech. Under English rule, before the revolution, any criticism of the King was punishable. Since all government officials were agents of the King, any criticism of officials was also punishable. That is similar to the situation today in the many countries with totalitarian governments.
It is my understanding that the Freedom of Speech Amendment was for the protection of individuals who might want to criticize any officials; that is, the government cannot punish people for being critical of the government.
Unfortunately, Freedom of Speech has degenerated into a belief that people can speak and write whatever it is that they choose to express wherever and whenever they want to. It was never intended to protect pornography, vulgarity, and obscenity, or interference with the activities of other people. While Freedom of Speech gives people a right to speak and write, it does not give them a right to an audience. Other people are not required to read or listen to whatever someone wants to say. Freedom of Speech does not give people the right to intrude upon or to disrupt the activities of others. There is not any right to shout down an invited speaker at an event just because the speaker's views are opposed. There is not any right to interfere with solemn events or ceremonies.
Anon 1:36 AM, oh how true you are. I only wish more would see it that way.
"Unfortunately, Freedom of Speech has degenerated into a belief that people can speak and write whatever it is that they choose to express wherever and whenever they want to."
--They can unless it's libel or defamation. Of course, there can be limits when it comes to venues. If the Klan wants to parade, they have to get a permit so if the Phelps want to protest a funeral they should also apply for a permit and perhaps be given time AFTER the funeral.
"It was never intended to protect pornography, vulgarity, and obscenity, or interference with the activities of other people. "
---What's wrong with pornography? It has existed throughout history in many forms. Blaming pornography for bad behavior is like blaming guns for suicides or blaming cars for drunk driving. People are responsible for their own choices, the environment is irrelevant.
Personally, I happen to like pornography and prostitution. I think it's great that I can watch the women I like naked without having to buy them dinner or spend weeks getting to know them. I also think it's refreshing to hire a pretty girl for sex rather than sleeping with someone unattractive. Beggars CAN be choosers, rather than sleeping with everyone it's great to be extremely picky and satisfy yourself with the best of the best.
If the Klan wants to parade, they have to get a permit so if the Phelps want to protest a funeral they should also apply for a permit and perhaps be given time AFTER the funeral.
If the speech is protected, delaying a permit is unConstitutional.
People are responsible for their own choices, the environment is irrelevant.
So if some 12 year old gets dragged into porn, that is their fault?
Personally, I happen to like pornography and prostitution.
This is just too easy. I am going to refrain from making a comment on this. It is just too easy.
Beggars CAN be choosers, rather than sleeping with everyone it's great to be extremely picky and satisfy yourself with the best of the best.
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
That's just funny.
"If the speech is protected, delaying a permit is unConstitutional."
---What about safety issues? Police protection? Holding signs that say stuff like "God Hates America" and "Thank God for IED's" is going to upset a lot of people and put the Phelps in danger.
"So if some 12 year old gets dragged into porn, that is their fault?"
---Yes it is. Besides, I remember being 12 and buying my first Playboy and later on, Hustler. Did it turn me into a porn addict? No.
Of course, I guess your views is that a man should not see a woman naked until their first night as a married couple. That's like buying a car without taking it for a test drive.
"This is just too easy. I am going to refrain from making a comment on this. It is just too easy."
---You realize porn has $10 billion to $14 billion in annual sales. So just because you're idealistic and want some kind of traditional family-values lifestyle doesn't mean everyone shares your views. In fact, lots of people watch porn, they just don't admit it.
http://www.forbes.com/2001/05/25/0524porn.html
---What about safety issues? Police protection? Holding signs that say stuff like "God Hates America" and "Thank God for IED's" is going to upset a lot of people and put the Phelps in danger.
So your response to protected speech is allowing people to be in danger?
---Yes it is.
Wow.
Another completely ridiculous statement from you.
Did it turn me into a porn addict? No.
I guess that would depend on your definition of porn. It would also be dependent on the harm or lack of harm one sees or doesn't see from porn. That harm would include:....
That's like buying a car without taking it for a test drive.
...... making the ridiculous comparison of a woman and a piece of metal.
---You realize porn has $10 billion to $14 billion in annual sales.
I see. So in your mind money is equal to morals. Of course that would make sense as you think that a prostitute telling you that "you're the best!" means anything.
Congratulations. You are part of the under belly of society that can only have sex by paying for it, or self gratification while looking at porn.
Your mom must be so proud.
"So if some 12 year old gets dragged into porn, that is their fault?"
---Yes, it's called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. If your son finds your liquor and decides to get drunk, are you gonna blame Johnny Walker for their advertising?
"This is just too easy. I am going to refrain from making a comment on this. It is just too easy."
---Actually, the reason you're not making a comment is because you know I'm right. Porn is a $10-$14 billion dollar industry.
http://www.forbes.com/2001/05/25/0524porn.html
If you believe in capitalism, then you know that the marketplace isn't ruled by morality but by supply and demand. Nothing happens in a vacuum, people want porn, alcohol, drugs, Cuban cigars, lottery, gambling trips, and someone is going to make it happen for them.
"I guess that would depend on your definition of porn."
---Anything sexual done between consenting adults should be legal.
"It would also be dependent on the harm or lack of harm one sees or doesn't see from porn. That harm would include:...."
---So should we ban hunting just because some people die in hunting accidents? Should we ban casinos just because some people have gambling problems?
"...... making the ridiculous comparison of a woman and a piece of metal."
---It's not a ridiculous comparison, sexual compatibility is just as important as emotional compatibility.
"I see. So in your mind money is equal to morals. Of course that would make sense as you think that a prostitute telling you that "you're the best!" means anything."
---Don't be stupid, I don't hire hookers for them to tell me I'm good. I hire them for fun, nothing more.
"Congratulations. You are part of the under belly of society that can only have sex by paying for it, or self gratification while looking at porn."
---Actually, I am mainstream, you're not. With a 50% divorce rate and a $10 billion porn industry, you are not the rule anymore.
"Your mom must be so proud."
---I'm not a slave of my parents, I make my own choices with or without their approval. If I ever choose to marry it's gonna be the girl that I want, not whoever my parents approve.
Tell me, is your mother proud that you're so rude? Your approach ain't gonna win you any converts.
---Yes, it's called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. If your son finds your liquor and decides to get drunk, are you gonna blame Johnny Walker for their advertising?
First, I am surprised that you believe that your chosen profession has no influence on people's behavior. Secondly, I would blame myself, but certainly the ads that portray how fun it is to get drunk have a part in this.
---Actually, the reason you're not making a comment is because you know I'm right.
The reason I did not make a comment was the pathetic belief you have in porn and the tacit admission that you like it and use it to get off.
If you believe in capitalism, then you know that the marketplace isn't ruled by morality but by supply and demand.
Yet capitalism in the form of products has rules. Or do you believe that a company that makes a defective product should not be held accountable for their actions?
---Anything sexual done between consenting adults should be legal.
There goes porn then.
---So should we ban hunting just because some people die in hunting accidents? Should we ban casinos just because some people have gambling problems?
Many states do have laws regulating the use of weapons for hunting. Many states do have regulations for gambling casinos and their patrons.
---It's not a ridiculous comparison, sexual compatibility is just as important as emotional compatibility.
Of course it is ridiculous. You just compared a living breathing woman to a hunk of metal.
---Don't be stupid, I don't hire hookers for them to tell me I'm good. I hire them for fun, nothing more.
You hire hookers because that is the only way that you can get off. You hire them because they make you feel more important and better than you are.
---Actually, I am mainstream, you're not. With a 50% divorce rate and a $10 billion porn industry, you are not the rule anymore.
Actually, you aren't in the mainstream as most people don't visit prostitutes. Seecondly, you still think that money equals right unless of course, it is a company that has the money and you want it. Then the company is always evil.
---I'm not a slave of my parents,
Who said that you were? The obvious point is that your parents don't know about your addiction to porn and prostitutes. You have to hide it from them because you know they would disagree with it and feel shame.
If I ever choose to marry it's gonna be the girl that I want, not whoever my parents approve.
Prostitutes don't make good wives. That is the only way you can get a woman and considering how you view women, it is no wonder.
Tell me, is your mother proud that you're so rude?
I presume that by "rude" you mean "anyone who disagrees with you."
"First, I am surprised that you believe that your chosen profession has no influence on people's behavior."
---I never said that, obviously it has some influence but it's the end consumer that has to make a choice. Victoria's Secret advertising is not gonna make you buy a pair of underwear if you're a man, unless they're for your wife.
"Secondly, I would blame myself, but certainly the ads that portray how fun it is to get drunk have a part in this."
---Actually, in America you can't show people drinking the beer. You can show them holding the beer, pouring the beer, but never drinking it. Also, beer commercials don't show people getting drunk, they show them having fun.
"The reason I did not make a comment was the pathetic belief you have in porn and the tacit admission that you like it and use it to get off."
---So getting off isn't natural?
"Yet capitalism in the form of products has rules. Or do you believe that a company that makes a defective product should not be held accountable for their actions?"
---Porn, guns, beer, and prostitution are not defective products, the work as intended.
"There goes porn then."
---No, legal porn is consensual, both performers agree to perform by their own free will.
"Many states do have laws regulating the use of weapons for hunting. Many states do have regulations for gambling casinos and their patrons."
---Porn is also regulated.
"Of course it is ridiculous. You just compared a living breathing woman to a hunk of metal."
---I read Savage Love, he's a sex advice columnist, I've seen him print hundreds of letters where a man is unhappy because his wife doesn't like sex, or a woman wants to have more sex but the man says no, or a guy wants to explore s/m but he's afraid of telling his wife. See? If those people had been sexually honest with each other maybe they wouldn't have the problems they have today.
"You hire hookers because that is the only way that you can get off. You hire them because they make you feel more important and better than you are."
---No, I hire them because they're fun, pretty, easy, and don't waste my time. So-called "decent women" are a pain in the ass, they play too many games, have too many demands, you have to chase after them, what can I say? I'd rather be single for now.
"Actually, you aren't in the mainstream as most people don't visit prostitutes."
---Pick a copy of your yellow pages and count how many pages are dedicated to escort services. But fine, let's say that most people don't visit prostitutes, what about strip bars? What about totally nude lap-dances? You're telling me most men haven't been to strip bar?
"Who said that you were? The obvious point is that your parents don't know about your addiction to porn and prostitutes. You have to hide it from them because you know they would disagree with it and feel shame."
---Who says I have an addition? You think watching porn every few other day is an addiction? See, you don't know me yet you a
assume things. Besides, you tell your parents everything?
"Prostitutes don't make good wives. That is the only way you can get a woman and considering how you view women, it is no wonder."
---Maybe I'll get a Russian bride, it's a nice marriage of convenience and sometimes those unions grow into love.
"I presume that by "rude" you mean "anyone who disagrees with you."
---No, you can disagree with me without calling me a porn addict or asking if my mother is proud of me.
2:07 AM
---I never said that, obviously it has some influence but it's the end consumer that has to make a choice.
Then the responsibility is not all on the person, is it?
---Actually, in America you can't show people drinking the beer.
Actually, you can't show a video of them drinking a beer. You can show them in a print ad. And by the way, I didn't realize that Johnny Walker was a beer. Or did you just try and pathetically change the topic again?
---So getting off isn't natural?
Paying for it isn't.
---Porn, guns, beer, and prostitution are not defective products, the work as intended.
Once again you have changed the subject. And yes, beer does not always live up to its label, nor do guns. As for porn, I'll leave that up to you.
If those people had been sexually honest with each other maybe they wouldn't have the problems they have today.
Thank you for once again changing the subject. You are now trying to equate being honest and talking to a woman with that same woman being a car. You are now trying to say that talking and being honest is the same thing as intercourse. Of course, in your world where the woman you buy will tell you what you want to hear, that would be your standard of "honesty."
you have to chase after them, what can I say?
You've said it all. You can't catch a "decent woman" so you have to pay for an indecent one.
You're telling me most men haven't been to strip bar?
You telling me that a strip bar is the same as intercourse for pay?
---Who says I have an addition? You think watching porn every few other day is an addiction?
You just proved you have an addiction.
---Maybe I'll get a Russian bride, it's a nice marriage of convenience and sometimes those unions grow into love.
There ya go. You can only buy "love." Whether it is some prostitute, some porno film or some porno mag, that is your idea of a relationship.
---No, you can disagree with me without calling me a porn addict or asking if my mother is proud of me.
You just admitted that you are a porn addict. And I am sorry that your mother isn't proud of your porn addiction.
"Then the responsibility is not all on the person, is it?"
---You are correct, however, in a free society it's up to you to make the choices that are best for you.
"Paying for it isn't."
---So what's the alternative? Have sex with ugly chicks and then be unhappy because you don't like how they feel? That's not fair for the man nor it is fair for the woman.
"Once again you have changed the subject. And yes, beer does not always live up to its label, nor do guns. As for porn, I'll leave that up to you."
---True, but when the consumer tries a beer that claims to be the best and the beer isn't the best, he simply tries another beer. Do we need the government telling us which beers we can drink? No, the marketplace self-regulates, good products eventually succeed while bad products eventually fail.
"Thank you for once again changing the subject. You are now trying to equate being honest and talking to a woman with that same woman being a car."
---Fine, I'll compare a woman to a new employee in a company. If a woman is gonna be part of my life, I want to make sure that she's good in and out of the bedroom before I marry her. I want to make sure sex with her is fun, pleasurable, that's she's willing to try new things, etc, etc, etc. According to you, I'm being unrealistic. I should just marry her and then find out if the sex will be good.
"You are now trying to say that talking and being honest is the ou same thing as intercourse. Of course, in your world where the woman you buy will tell you what you want to hear, that would be your standard of "honesty."
---Dude, men don't hire ho's for conversation. The last time I got a lap dance I was annoyed because the stripper kept asking me questions about what do I do and where am I from. Men hire hookers for the same reason King David seduced Batsheba, lust.
"You've said it all. You can't catch a "decent woman" so you have to pay for an indecent one."
---Once again you're making assumptions about what I can or cannot do. Governor Elliot Spitzer married a decent woman, did he not? Perhaps he got bored of her, maybe she didn't want to give him oral, maybe they where fighting, so, he had sexual needs and fulfilled them with the kind of women most men can't get for free. The difference between me and Elliot is that I'm not a hypocrite, I'm not an adulterer, I am true to my needs first. If Elliot wasn't happy in his marriage, he should have told his wife before hiring those hookers. Who knows, maybe Elliot would have been better off being single and having sex with the women he likes vs. being married and being unhappy.
"You telling me that a strip bar is the same as intercourse for pay?"
---You've never been to the champagne room? Sometimes intercourse happens there.
"You just proved you have an addiction."
---For it to be an addiction it would have to interfere with daily life. For example, watching Monday Night Football is not the same as being so obsessed with sports that you're checking out espn.com during work hours. Porn is a healthy way of sexual release, it's cheaper than hookers and there's no possibility of disease.
"There ya go. You can only buy "love." Whether it is some prostitute, some porno film or some porno mag, that is your idea of a relationship."
----India has been practicing arranged marriages for centuries and only 1.1% of their marriages end in divorce.
http://www.newsplex.com/news/headlines/15647947.html
"You just admitted that you are a porn addict."
---No I haven't. Liking porn is not the same as being addicted to porn. Just because you never watch porn doesn't mean that people who do watch are all porn addicts.
"And I am sorry that your mother isn't proud of your porn addiction."
---You have no right to bring my mother into this, no right at all. You are debating me, not my mother, so you leave her out of this.
I will agree that Phelps can do what he is doing by exercising his rights to free speech. However I know if he was protesting at my sister or brothers funeral I would be exercising my right to put my foot up his ass and then get arrested for assault. Considering how old they all are, I could probably kick the shit out of a few of them before they could stop me and I would gladly go to jail for it.
---You are correct, however, in a free society it's up to you to make the choices that are best for you.
Thanks for the flip flop.
That's not fair for the man nor it is fair for the woman.
Wow. How shallow can you get? You view women as pieces of meat. What's the matter? Can't you find a woman that you think is attractive other than to pay for her?
---True, but when the consumer tries a beer that claims to be the best and the beer isn't the best, he simply tries another beer.
This is funny. Here you are once again attacking your profession of advertising. But we weren't talking about "puffery." We were talking about products that are defective in design.
According to you, I'm being unrealistic. I should just marry her and then find out if the sex will be good.
No, you are not talking to the woman and think that her only value is to make you happy in bed. Woman are more complex and enjoyable than "what can they do in bed." Most adults know that.
Men hire hookers for the same reason King David seduced Batsheba, lust.
And look what happened to him.
---Once again you're making assumptions about what I can or cannot do.
I am going off of what you said.
---You've never been to the champagne room? Sometimes intercourse happens there.
Another diversion from you. Can't you ever answer a question?
----India has been practicing arranged marriages for centuries and only 1.1% of their marriages end in divorce.
Right. Because in India the stigmatizism attached to a divorce is unbelievable.
Just because you never watch porn doesn't mean that people who do watch are all porn addicts.
Actually, the frequency that you have admitted to watching and viewing porn means that you are an addict. Once again, you are blaming me for your failings.
---You have no right to bring my mother into this, no right at all. You are debating me, not my mother, so you leave her out of this.
Clearly you know that your mother is ashamed of what you are doing. You are the one that said your actions were "in the mainstream" yet your own mother contradicts that assumption.
It is not my fault you your actions make your mother ashamed of who you are.
"Wow. How shallow can you get? You view women as pieces of meat. What's the matter?"
---And sometimes they view men as pieces of meat, or have you not been to an Abercrombie & Fitch store?
"Can't you find a woman that you think is attractive other than to pay for her?"
---I can, what I don't like is all the bullshit you have to put up with in order to get them. If women didn't play so many games perhaps I'd be more willing to date instead of hiring hookers every once in a while.
"This is funny. Here you are once again attacking your profession of advertising. But we weren't talking about "puffery." We were talking about products that are defective in design."
---Well, I did say that porn isn't defective in design unless the audio sucks, the lighting is improper and the models are ugly.
"No, you are not talking to the woman and think that her only value is to make you happy in bed. Woman are more complex and enjoyable than "what can they do in bed." Most adults know that."
---Come on, you go to any party and chances are the women talk to the women and the men talk to the men. If God had created Adam, Even and Steve, Adam would be watching football with Steve while Eve cooks them dinner.
"And look what happened to him."
---Yes, both King David and King Salomon paid for their sins. But the difference between you and me is that I am more realistic about human needs while you are more idealistic.
"I am going off of what you said."
---No, what you're doing is the equivalent of accusing a beer drinker of being an alcoholic because he likes having a beer every once in a while.
"Another diversion from you. Can't you ever answer a question?"
---So what you're saying is that it's not as sinful to pay for a lap dance?
"Right. Because in India the stigmatizism attached to a divorce is unbelievable."
---My point is that the traditional western notions of love don't always work. If I followed Christian values I would a 34 year old virgin, depressed and angry with the world. Instead, I have a fulfilling life because when I need sex, I get it under my terms and conditions.
Furthermore, I see too many men being dominated by women who tell them how to dress, how to decorate their homes, what friends they can have, etc. I lost my best male friend to a possessive bitch that used her talents in the bedroom to control him. My buddy used to have time for me, but now he has become her slave. See? What kind of masculinity is that? A real man is in charge of his life.
"Actually, the frequency that you have admitted to watching and viewing porn means that you are an addict. Once again, you are blaming me for your failings."
---Did I say I watch porn everyday?
"Clearly you know that your mother is ashamed of what you are doing."
---You have no way of knowing that.
As much as I would like to make assumptions about your mother, I'm not gonna do it because unlike you, I don't do cheap shots. You want to judge me? Fine, but you leave my mother out of it.
In fact, if you're such a family values guy, you'd know that family is sacred and you should never mess with someone else's family, or when was the last time you saw Glen Beck saying that Michael Moore's parents are ashamed of him?
I love my family, and I'm not gonna put up with you saying anything about them.
---And sometimes they view men as pieces of meat, or have you not been to an Abercrombie & Fitch store?
So in your mind, because people treat each other badly, that makes it right?
---I can, what I don't like is all the bullshit you have to put up with in order to get them.
This statement alone proves that you can't.
---Well, I did say that porn isn't defective in design unless the audio sucks, the lighting is improper and the models are ugly.
Which has nothing to do with your attack on your own chosen profession.
---Come on, you go to any party and chances are the women talk to the women and the men talk to the men.
Which of course has nothing to do with the person you want to marry being compatible with you sexually. That is what happens when you view people as meat. You forget how to talk to them unless you have a dollar bill in your hand.
---Yes, both King David and King Salomon paid for their sins.
How ironic that the person you hoisted up as being an example of a good lifestyle is one that you now admit was wrong.
But the difference between you and me is that I am more realistic about human needs while you are more idealistic.
No, one of the many differences between you and I is that I don't try and justify my immoral, illicit and shameful behavior.
You do.
Constantly.
---No, what you're doing is the equivalent of accusing a beer drinker of being an alcoholic because he likes having a beer every once in a while.
No, I am going off of the standards for what is considered a porn addict.
---So what you're saying is that it's not as sinful to pay for a lap dance?
Clearly you cannot read.
---My point is that the traditional western notions of love don't always work.
So when are you moving to India? There you can have sex for money with teenage girls who will tell you what a stud you are.
If I followed Christian values I would a 34 year old virgin, depressed and angry with the world.
Really? Your inadequacies would bother you that much, eh?
Instead, I have a fulfilling life because when I need sex, I get it under my terms and conditions.
I see. In your world paying for sex adds fulfillment to your life. That's pathetic.
A real man is in charge of his life.
A real man doesn't have to pay for sex and isn't a porn addict like you.
---Did I say I watch porn everyday?
Nope. Sadly for you your frequency of every other day (which you admitted) puts you in the "addicted to porn" category.
---You have no way of knowing that.
I am just taking what you say.
I love my family, and I'm not gonna put up with you saying anything about them.
You love your family so much that you revel in your actions that cause your mother shame and not to be proud of you?
That would make sense as that is just about the depth of your understanding of "love."
"Which has nothing to do with your attack on your own chosen profession."
---My profession tries to help people sell stuff. What that means is maybe we increase sales by 1%, 5%, 20%, but that doesn't mean we influence everyone.
"How ironic that the person you hoisted up as being an example of a good lifestyle is one that you now admit was wrong."
---He wasn't wrong in the way he went about satisfying his desires. King David had plenty of wives and was free to get another wife, he didn't need to resort to adultery. As for King Salomon, there was no need to build pagan temples to some of his wives.
"No, one of the many differences between you and I is that I don't try and justify my immoral, illicit and shameful behavior.
You do.
Constantly."
---Because I don't see it as immoral, illicit or shameful under my circumstances. I'm a single man, I haven't taken vows of fidelity, so when I have sex I'm not cheating anyone.
"No, I am going off of the standards for what is considered a porn addict."
---I have read about the standards. Porn addicts check out porn often during the day, they get so obsessed with porn that they neglect their jobs, families, their health, human relationships, etc. That is not my case.
"So when are you moving to India? There you can have sex for money with teenage girls who will tell you what a stud you are."
---Of course not, I don't like brown women. I like my women white, pale and blond. And why would I be interested in teenage girls? That's sick. Girls in their 20s and 30s are fine for me.
"Really? Your inadequacies would bother you that much, eh?"
---Of course they would, I'm not a priest, I can't take vows of chastity and be happy.
"I see. In your world paying for sex adds fulfillment to your life. That's pathetic."
---Why is paying for sex so bad? We pay to get our cars repaired, we pay for groceries, we pay for a massage, healthcare, haircuts, career coaching, tours... Unless you want to do it yourself,
chances are you will pay one way or another.
"You love your family so much that you revel in your actions that cause your mother shame and not to be proud of you?"
---My mother doesn't need to know about my private life, thus she feels no shame. Besides, it's my life, I'm living it how I want.
What that means is maybe we increase sales by 1%, 5%, 20%, but that doesn't mean we influence everyone.
But by your own admission that means you influence some, which means that you would be partially responsible for their choices, right?
---He wasn't wrong in the way he went about satisfying his desires.
I'm sorry, but if you think that arranging the death of another man so you can sleep with his widow is an acceptable way of "satisfying ones desires," you have a lot more issues than you realize.
---Because I don't see it as immoral, illicit or shameful under my circumstances.
You don't see it being immoral to lie like you do on this forum? Interesting.
...neglect their jobs, families, their health, human relationships, etc.
That would be the family that includes your mother who you know would be ashamed of your actions? That would be the job you don't have? That would be the relationship where you view woman as pieces of meat to be bought and sold?
Nah. No issues there. None at all.
That is not my case.
Actually, your case is one of porn addiction. You haven't read thge standards because if you had, you would know that you are a porn addict.
And why would I be interested in teenage girls? That's sick.
Oh. I see. So your standard that you threw out as a moral fortress is not such a great place, is it?
---Of course they would, I'm not a priest, I can't take vows of chastity and be happy.
No one said anything about being a priest. As usual, you can't face facts. You like to think that you are in control of who and what you are but it is clear that your inadequacies are controlling you. You can't get a woman, so you have to pay for one. You can't talk to a woman in any meaningful sense of the word, so you have to pay for one. You are so afraid of people not seeing you for what you are that you have to buy others off and lie.
---Why is paying for sex so bad? We pay to get our cars repaired, we pay for groceries, we pay for a massage, healthcare, haircuts, career coaching, tours...
I just want to make sure that I understand this. You think that the most intimate act that two people can participate in is the same as getting a car repaired? The same as buying meat in a grocery store? (Oh wait, we covered that. You do believe that.) Getting a haircut?
No wonder you can't find a woman. You have no idea of what true intimacy and love is all about. Far from you controlling your inadequacies, they are controlling and defining you.
---My mother doesn't need to know about my private life, thus she feels no shame. Besides, it's my life, I'm living it how I want.
I understand that you are living a life that your mother would find shameful and in doing so, you lie to her.
Is that what you think love in a family is about? Causing others to be ashamed of your actions? Hiding your actions so they won't feel that shame? Lying to loved ones?
Man, you really are clueless.
"But by your own admission that means you influence some, which means that you would be partially responsible for their choices, right?"
---Yes, perhaps I would be partially responsible. Although in my experience, people do what they want no matter what I say. That's why it's easier to sell porn to someone that already likes porn than to a prude.
"I'm sorry, but if you think that arranging the death of another man so you can sleep with his widow is an acceptable way of "satisfying ones desires," you have a lot more issues than you realize."
---Ooops, I meant he WAS wrong. That was a typo. He should have hired a hooker, and Batsheba should have said no.
"Oh. I see. So your standard that you threw out as a moral fortress is not such a great place, is it?"
---Everybody has standards, your mistake is expecting the entire world to have YOUR standards.
"I just want to make sure that I understand this. You think that the most intimate act that two people can participate in is the same as getting a car repaired? The same as buying meat in a grocery store? (Oh wait, we covered that. You do believe that.) Getting a haircut?"
---I believe sex is fun, I believe sex can be had with no emotional attachment, for pleasure's sake only. Thus, yes, in some instances getting sex is like getting a massage.
"I understand that you are living a life that your mother would find shameful and in doing so, you lie to her."
---I don't lie, she doesn't ask me questions about my personal business. Or tell me, do you tell your mother that you masturbate? Do you videotape your sexual sessions with your wife and show it to her? My parents know what they need to know, no more, no less.
"I that what you think love in a family is about? Causing others to be ashamed of your actions?"
"Hiding your actions so they won't feel that shame? Lying to loved ones?"
---You always tell the truth to your love ones? "Hey Aunt Sally, I wanted to let you know that I think you're ugly and old." "Hey Uncle Mike, your brand new car is ugly as sin."
I'm not clueless, I'm polite and sensitive to others needs.
You're the one who can't disagree without being disagreeable.
---Yes, perhaps I would be partially responsible.
Finally. An admission that you were initially wrong.
---Everybody has standards, your mistake is expecting the entire world to have YOUR standards.
You don't have any standards other than "what I want is okay." That is not a standard, that is narcissism. I just find it laughable at how many times you throw things out and say "look at this" only to later retract your statement.
---I believe sex is fun, I believe sex can be had with no emotional attachment, for pleasure's sake only.
There ya go. You once again proved that it is all about you and your pre-pubescent view of the world and other human beings.
---I don't lie,
First, a lie of omission is still a lie. Secondly, if we had a dollar for every lie you have told here in this forum, we could make a dent in the national debt.
---You always tell the truth to your love ones?
See? Here you go with your moral relativism again. You think that an opinion on a car is the same thing as behavior your family finds shameful.
I'm not clueless, I'm polite and sensitive to others needs.
You are only sensitive to your wants and desires. That is all you care about.
You're the one who can't disagree without being disagreeable.
Ah yes. The same ol' meme from you that the truth is "disagreeable."
Once again, you are simply clueless.
"You don't have any standards other than "what I want is okay." That is not a standard, that is narcissism. I just find it laughable at how many times you throw things out and say "look at this" only to later retract your statement."
---Self-love is important, if you can't love yourself, how can you love anyone else? A little narcissism isn't that bad. Haven't you heard of moderation? Why must everything be black and white for you?
"There ya go. You once again proved that it is all about you and your pre-pubescent view of the world and other human beings."
---If everyone felt like you neither prostitution, nor porn, nor strip bars would exist. My views are not pre-pubescent, there's lots of men and even women that enjoy sex with no strings attached. Look at the cougar movement, you think they're looking for love? How long will a relationship between a 20 year old man and a 40 year old woman is gonna last?
"You are only sensitive to your wants and desires. That is all you care about."
---It's better than being a slave of the wants and desires of everyone else. You have to take care of yourself first.
At my last job the boss of my boss was fat, and I felt sorry for him. He was rich unlike me, but as a fat person he's going to be discriminated against outside the work environment by the sizist bigots. And why is he fat? Probably for working too many 12 hour days and eating crap over the years. See? If he had taken care of himself first, maybe he would have worked 9 or 10 hour days and find time to hire a trainer and get in shape which is what I did.
---Self-love is important, if you can't love yourself, how can you love anyone else?
Well, between hookers and your "self love," that is all you'll ever have and experience.
Why must everything be black and white for you?
Its not. Why must you always lie and make up things? There are some things that are black and white. For example, how many times does a person have to lie to be a liar? Or how many times does a person have to cheat to be a cheater? You will always make up some excuse for your actions.
My views are not pre-pubescent,
You're right. They are even more immature than that. You see women as meat and cars and property. Mature people don't.
---It's better than being a slave of the wants and desires of everyone else. You have to take care of yourself first.
There ya go. It is always about you and the hell with the rest of the world. Your (lack of) morals and standards trumps everyone elses.
How nice for you.
If he had taken care of himself first, maybe he would have worked 9 or 10 hour days and find time to hire a trainer and get in shape which is what I did.
You know, I was going to shoot this down but then I realized you may have a point here. The guy was over eating to the point where his intake was unhealthy. You, on the other hand are addicted to porn and prostitutes, and just like your ex boss, your lifestyle is unhealthy as well.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Oh and by the way, if it is so natural and pure and wonderful that you hire hookers and treat women like pieces of meat, then why haven't you told your mother that is what you do and the way you feel?
We both know the answer to that, but you will try and rationalize it away.
You say you love your mom and your family, yet you do things to shame them.
That ain't love.
That is narcissism. Narcissists are known, in part, for lying to others and to themselves to appear better and more pure than they really are.
It fits you to a tee.
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