We read:
"Three small-town eighth-graders in Minnesota were suspended by their principal for not standing Thursday morning for the Pledge of Allegiance, violating a district policy that the principal now says may soon be reworded to protect free speech rights. ... The head of the Minnesota American Civil Liberties Union said that the school's actions against the students are unconstitutional, and his office informed the district of that today in a strongly worded letter."
Source
The ACLU is clearly right on this one. The case above does not seem to involve religion but various groups (e.g. Quakers) have religious objections to the pledge so the first amendment clearly protects their freedom of religion. I am rather surprised that the pledge has lasted so long, given its plain violation of the first amendment in such cases. A voluntary pledge is OK of course.
23 comments:
My understanding of this story is that the students failure to stand was the cause of the suspension. Thye must stand, but are not required to recite the pledge.
As far as I'm concerned, if you don't want to pledge you allegiance to your country, then you should have no rights as a citizen. You can live there, but just as a resident.
well said. It's a pledge to the constitution, and is not religious (though some of the wording may be).
If you hate your country so much you won't respect its symbols, you have no right to call yourself a citizen of that country.
And no, you should not be allowed to live there as a foreigner either.
Foreigners should respect their host country and its symbols just as much as (if not more so than) its citizens.
I'm posting this anonymously because I don't want Google to get any more information about me than they already have and thus won't sign up for any account on any of their services.
It is wrong that they do not stand, the ACLU is absolutely wrong! As said, they are not required to recite the pledge, so there is no first amendment issue. Just as there is no first amendment issue to be able to stand and talk during class.
The students, though, should be taught to respect other people. When visiting other countries I always stand when that country's national anthem is played, not out of allegiance, but respect for their values. For them to disrespect the national plegde is wrong.
Why should foreign residents pledge allegiance to a foreign constitution? That would be disrespectful to the country of which they are a citizen (maybe even a traitorous act).
Also religious people can't have it both ways - their right to object on religious grounds to laws favoring things like homosexuality, but demanding that some other religious group can't object to laws about secular allegiances because of conflict with their religious beliefs.
Anon #5. This is not about pledging allegiance, it is about standing during it. Foreigners should be expected to respect our traditions if they come here. As #4 said, you stand for other country's anthem out of respect for thse countries, as I would expect others to stand (especialyy US citizens) when the US anthem is played.
I feel much the same way as mosy of you, that a person should stand up out of respect for the country they are in when the anthem is played. However I do not believe that there should be a law requireing you to do so. The respect that should be shown can only be taught by society not legislated by its government.
"The case above does not seem to involve religion but various groups (e.g. Quakers) have religious objections to the pledge so the first amendment?
If they have "religious" objections to standing, then it IS based on religion! And what religion bans people from standing?
What we're seeing here is simply another case where people feel no need to show America, it's flag, it's history, it's traditions, it's laws, or it's people any respect! Ironically, it is all of those things that give these Quakers the right to practice their goofy religion in the first place!
Perhaps they feel that since no one else has any respect for America, why should they. Maybe they see that vast numbers of the American people themselves don't have any respect for this country, (or themselves) so why should they bother. If this is what they think, they're not alone. Since large numbers of the American people have no respect for, or pride in this country, why should anyone else.
Generally speaking, the American people have become so dumb and so weakminded, that they don't even realize they're watching the end of their country as they've known it. Or even worse, they no longer care!..... GSP
So you admit there are degrees of "goofy-ness" in religion - I rest my case!
It is a very dangerous to say that I don't support my country as much as you as long as I disagree with the way you outwardly show my support. Although I personally enjoy reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, I can understand and respect the feelings of those who feel it is wrong to do so. Many religions hold that you should "pledge" your allegiance to God only, not the fallible political organizations (countries, treaties, etc.) that men have created. That does not necessarily mean that they will disregard the laws and community standard that make our country great. A failure to recite the pledge only indicates a prior commitment to a higher authority - it does not indicate hatred of or disloyalty to the USA.
Jake, I don't think a single person said anything about not standing for the pledge would make a person "disregard the laws and community standard that make our country great".
You also tell us how dangerous it is to make assumptions about people that do not take the pledge but yet you make an assumption about them that you want us to agree with.
"A failure to recite the pledge only indicates a prior commitment to a higher authority"
Plenty of people won’t recite the pledge because they do NOT believe in a higher authority.
The problem here is not a matter of reciting the pledge or not, it is a matter of 3 disrespectful kids who were simply asked to stand, not to recite the pledge. I doubt these kids were thinking of being rebels when they refused to stand.
Global Warmer
In this instance, standing would be considered a form of expression. I don't care if they are expressing their disdain for this country or are expressing their desire to sit down because standing sucks, they should not have been punished at all.
If a government employee can compel one type of action, why not another. I understand that if the action (or in this case, inaction) has a direct negative impact on another person's life, liberty, or property. However, so long as what they were doing did not directly cause someone the loss of personal liberty, then I have a hard time seeing why anyone needs to be disciplined here.
If you think that this is bad, wait until President Obama is sworn in! Then, not even our President will recite the Pledge of Allegiance!
Why complicate the issue? Here is the school. The school has a rule - to stand up during the pledge. As long as the rule is in effect, everyone must follow. If people disagree (or dislike) the rule, they should work through legitimate channels and processes to change the rule. If majority of people want the rule to be changed, it will be changed. If only minority of people want the change, the rule will not change, but they may get a permission (this is popular nowadays) an exception/excuse to not follow the rule. Untli any of these happened, not following the rule is a vioaltion of the scholl policy (however good or bad the policy is), and the violators should be punished, according to the same policy.
The thing is, when asked WHY they didn't stand, the kids just said "I don't know". They had no real reason except to be different and to push the limits. So they didn't really have any religious or political stand (so to speak).
Standing as a sign of respect should be taught in our schools, since it's obviously not taught at home. But I don't know that it should be mandatory.
BTT
So if the school has a visiting dignitary suck as the Ambassador from Mexico come to the school and the Mexican National Anthem was played and the Principle asked all the students to stand for it and they all refused and stayed sitting, that would be OK?
Mobius
Yes, it would be ok! As an American citizen, on American soil, you are not obligated to honor, (in any way) the flag of any nation other than your own. If you choose to do so, fine. That's why Federal law say's, " all other flags must be flown (below) the American flag!" The fact that these kids had no reason for their actions proves they were told to do this, most likely by their parents, and that's a "political" act, not a religious one!
No one is saying they must recite the pledge. But standing during that pledge is simply showing respect (not agreement, allegiance, etc.) for the country that allows you not to have to recite the pledge. If you can't simply stand to show respect for this country, you should not be allowed to enjoy ANY of the benefits, rights, liberties, or privileges it affords!..... GSP
1.) Standing is just good manners and therefore one should stand and be expected to do so. There are rarely good excuses for insulting others on purpose and one should always respect one's hosts.
2.) Manners are not a matter of law. If one chooses to be an a-hole one has the right to do so as long as one doesn't hurt others.
3.) Foreigners shouldn't be asked to pledge allegiance to a foreign country. That's much worse an insult than sitting down during such an ordeal. Would you like if your kids would be forced to pledge their allegiance to some foreign country while being abroad as an exchange student?
These are not foreigners, and this is not a first amendment issue. These are some lazy idiot kids who are too cool to stand up.
Given that kids are required to be in school (against their will), the school certainly has the right to require that they sit and stand on command.
Rather than calling the ACLU, these kids' similarly idiotic parents should be embarrassed by their childrens' poor behavior. One even suggested that the punishment (1 day in-school suspension) was too harsh, and that a more appropriate punishment would be to have them write a paper. In middle school, which punishment would you have chosen?
If you are in our public school system, you are not a foreigner.
"If you are in our public school system, you are not a foreigner."
Does that include the 40 Million ILLEGAL Mexicans too? That is the dumbest statement i've ever seen!
>That's why Federal law say's, " all other flags must be flown (below) the American flag!" <
Actually, there is one flag that flies at the same height as the U.S. flag. The State Flag of Texas is allowed to fly at the same height, because it entered into the union as a separate country.
If those 40 million illegals are living here while attending public schools, then they are (like it or not) part of the melting pot that is America.
Foreigners are visitors who do not owe any allegiance to this country. Those who stay here and are using the services that are provided here should show some allegience.
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