We read:
"An Italian atheist writer who claims he can no longer tolerate the abundance of crucifixes in Italy has asked for asylum in Sweden.
Ennio Montesi, from Jesi near Ancona in the Marche region, wrote to Swedish Premier Fredrik Reinfeldt on Wednesday complaining that the Italian state is forcing him to live with "a religious and political symbol of death".
Montesi has been 'debaptised' and recently earned headlines with a vocal campaign against the cross in a hospital ward he claimed increased his suffering during a recent hospital stay.
Source
He might be better off in America. He is more likely to have some command of English than Swedish and the ACLU and others have pretty well erased any sign of Christianity from public spaces in America
Given my Presbyterian origins I don't like crucifixes much either, though I don't object to them. My old Presbyterian church was founded by the very austere "Wee Frees" and to this day it doesn't even have a cross in it, let alone a crucifix.
I probably shouldn't mention this but the cross was originally a pagan symbol and it is unlikely Jesus died on one. Jesus probably died with his hands nailed above his head.
There is no mention of a cross in the original Greek of the New Testament. The Greek words usually translated as cross are "stauros" and "xylon", which mean respectively "stake" and "wood" in classical Greek. Check the words in the authoritative Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon if you doubt me. I did. From Homer to Herodotus a "stauros" was a stake or pile driven into the ground. It's only Christian tradition that translates it as "cross".
34 comments:
If he goes to Sweden will he fly the Swedish flag? Scandanavian countries use the cross on their flags.
Italians are such strange people.
He's not angry, but he's kinda cross!
The early medieval scandinavian kings, like other kings in europe, saw the political advantages of forcing their subjects to convert to the "christianity" existing elsewhere in europe, and hence a cross later appeared in their respective national flags.
So much "christian" symbolism has its origins from diverse sources other than the time of the alleged Jesus of Nazareth figure described in the NT bible.
"I probably shouldn't mention this but the cross was originally a pagan symbol and it is unlikely Jesus died on one. Jesus probably died with his hands nailed above his head.
There is no mention of a cross in the original Greek of the New Testament. The Greek words usually translated as cross are "stauros" and "xylon", which mean respectively "stake" and "wood" in classical Greek. Check the words in the authoritative Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon if you doubt me. I did. From Homer to Herodotus a "stauros" was a stake or pile driven into the ground. It's only Christian tradition that translates it as "cross"."
This isn't fully accurate. From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
1. an upright stake, especially a pointed one (Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon).
2. a cross; a. the well-known instrument of most cruel and ignominious punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals, particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces, at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves;
These definitions are also supported by A Greek - English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition and every other Greek–English dictionary and lexicon I could lay my hands on.
From the New International Dictionary of Biblical Archaeology:
Philological and literary evidence seems to point to a T-shaped cross. The upright stake (stipes) was a fixture at the place of execution. The cross-piece was a beam carried by the condemned victim, bound to his arms and across the nape of the neck. This evidence has been competently assembled by a French surgeon, Pierre Barbet (The Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ, ch. 2, [1954]).…
Archaeology might have been expected to have some decisive word to say, but this is not the case. A satirical third-century graffito from the Palatine shows a line drawing of a crucified ass, worshiped by a standing figure and labeled: “Anaximenos worships his god.” The cross appears to be T-shaped, but an upward protusion behind the head of the animal could suggest the traditional form.
…
Important light on the crucifixion was shed by a discovery in 1968. In a Jerusalem cave, Israeli archaeologists unearthed the first material evidence of a crucifixion. It could indicate that Jesus Christ might have been crucified in a position different from that shown on the traditional cross. A detailed anatomical study of the remains of a man crucified at about the same time as Christ (a young man named Yehohanan) showed that the victim was nailed to the cross in a sitting position, both his legs slung together sideways, with the nail penetrating the sides of both feet just below the heel. The remains were discovered during excavations in an ancient cemetery at Givat Hamivtar in NE Jerusalem.
The anatomical study carried out by Dr. Nico Haas, of the Hebrew University anatomy department, indicated that the man was crucified “in a compulsive position, a difficult and unnatural posture,” evidently to increase the agony. The feet were joined almost parallel, both transfixed by the same nail at the heels, with the legs adjacent. The remains of the nail were embedded in the ankle bones. It was easier for those who took the body down to break the nail from the wood than to remove it from the feet.
The knees were doubled in a semiflexed position, the right one overlapping the left. The trunk was contorted, and the arms were stretched out [Note: This would require a crossbeam.], each apparently stabbed by a nail in the forearm, and not in the palms. This supports a contention by the French surgeon already quoted that the nails used in the crucifixion of Christ penetrated the solid structure of the wrist bones.
From the New Bible Dictionary:
Crucifixion was practised by the Phoenicians and Carthaginians and later used extensively by the Romans. Only slaves, provincials and the lowest types of criminals were crucified, but rarely Roman citizens. Thus tradition, which says that Peter, like Jesus, was crucified, but Paul beheaded, is in line with ancient practice.
Apart from the single upright post (crux simplex) on which the victim was tied or impaled, there were three types of cross. The crux commissa (St Anthony’s cross) was shaped like a capital T, thought by some to be derived from the symbol of the god Tammuz, the letter tau; the crux decussata (St Andrew’s cross) was shaped like the letter X; the crux immissa was the familiar two beams †, held by tradition to be the shape of the cross on which our Lord died. This is strengthened by the references in the four Gospels to the title nailed to the cross of Christ over his head.
And the war against Christianity goes on. Perhaps it's time we stopped turning the other cheek.
11/28/10: Todd Starnes Blog - School Bans Christmas Colors
A school in Florida has not only banned Christmas — but everything associated with the Christian holiday.
Teachers at Heathrow Elementary School have been ordered to banish images of Santa Claus from classrooms — along with traditional Christmas colors like red and green.
“You can’t use red and green,” one outraged parent told WESH. “It’s ridiculous.”
The parent, who serves as a volunteer room mother, said she was recently given a list of guidelines that listed the holiday restrictions.
She said the basic theme of the letter was, “We don’t want to offend anyone who doesn’t believe in Santa Claus or the Christian beliefs.”
The Seminole County School Board has a policy that demands employees must be neutral on religious issues. Schools are not allowed to observe or promote holidays as religious events.
The school district says they celebrate the season with a winter theme.
A district spokesperson told the television station they haven’t had any parents complain about their “holiday neutral” policy
Gosh i sure hope hope the swedes could stand this liberal pinhead and italy at least dosnt have the sinister ACLU
There is also extra-biblical evidence that Jesus was actually crucified:
"…and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross,…"
— Josephus, Antiquities 18:64
"Nero fastened the guilt [of the burning of Rome] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty [how Romans described crucifixion] during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus."
— Tacitus, the leading Roman historian, Annals 15.44
"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account."
— Lucian of Samosata, a Greek satirist, The Death of Peregrine
Even the Jesus Seminar—an organization which begins by assuming that the supernatural is not possible, then builds on that to attack Christianity—admits that Jesus was crucified:
"That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be."
— John Dominic Crossan, Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography, pg. 145
"There is also extra-biblical evidence that Jesus was actually crucified..."
Who cares?
extra-biblical = not contemporaneous = not Jewish = not Roman = not ANYBODY (might tell you something if you're not brainwashed by a certain religion!)
Jesus was not nailed to a cross per say, but he carried a large wooden beam strapped across his shoulders to the site of the crucifixion.
Jesus was crucified on the outskirts of the city, probably near the city dump. The wooden beam would be then raised, with the person tied to it. (Most executions involved the person being tied to the “cross” only very heinous crimes warranted nailing a person to it) and attached to a larger vertical post or tree in essence forming a cross. The vertical post would usually be reused for the next person.
The cross is a pagan symbol and the first “cross’ I have read about was found in the cave of john the Baptists, which had become a major pilgrimage for early Christians because it was believed that john was the messiah.
But it was the Emperor Constantine, who saw a symbol in the sky (it was the overlapped, first 2 letters of the name "Christ" in Greek - image the letters "P" and "x" overlapped). He also heard a voice coming from the sky say, "In this sign, conquer."
He had this sign painted onto all of his banners and shields, and was victorious in battle.
The symbol was called the Chi Rho, and can be seen at:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Edict_of_Milan
Note, it is mostly Catholics that use the actual crucifix because most Christian sects believe the empty cross symbolizes Christ’s resurrection.
Extra-biblical simply means "in addition to the biblical accounts", of which two were direct eyewitness accounts (Matthew and John) and two were based on interviews of eyewitnesses (Luke, who was a world-class historian and Mark, who was a protege of Peter).
I notice that once again, Anonymous is taking a position which makes it impossible to know anything at all about events in history; thus demonstrating his absolute unwillingness to actually examine evidence so he can continue to cling to his prejudices.
Dude! Wake up! Evidence is evidence, whether you like what it demonstrates or not!
For the record, Josephus was a jew, but not a Christian. Tacitus was a Roman. Both were historians.
Anon 4:42 and 4:47,
extra-biblical = not contemporaneous
Say what? Are you deliberately playing the fool, or is this the real you? Yeesh, what a ditz (albeit with the advantage of at least being obvious about it).
Of course lexicons of Biblical Greek do adhere to tradition and offer "cross" as one translation of "stauros"
My Abbott Smith Lexicon of Biblical Greek does too
But such a meaning was unknown in Classical Greek
Liddell & Scott is the main authority on classical Greek
So the cross is about as Christian as Christmas-- basically pagan -- with only church tradition transforming it into something Christian
Going by the seasonal indications, Christ was probably born in early October
Um, It doesn't matter what the symbol is, it's all about the meaning behind the symbol that is important:
God came to Earth in the form of a man, Jesus, to interact with us as a peer instead of His previous supernatural appearances. Jesus' interaction as a peer enabled Him to effectively communicate God's redemptive message that Jesus was born to die as the final sacrifice for sinful atonement. For all who accept His death as atonement for your sins, you will have eternal life with God. Reject it, and you are doomed to Hell.
"Jesus was born to die as the final sacrifice for sinful atonement. "
There are plenty of other people who gave their lives for others. Jesus is not unique in that regard.
Mr. Ray:
I wasn't going to delve into the whole language issue, but you keep referring to "classical Greek" as if that were relevant to the Greek used in the Bible.
During my daughter's first year of "Classical Greek" they informed her that at the end of the third semester, while she might be able to read Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates, she would NOT find the Biblical texts of the New Testament an "easy read."
These texts are NOT written in Classical Greek, so what the "classical Greek" lexicon says is as about as Germain as what Webster's first dictionary may say about modern English - it's a good starting point, but no longer the authority on common usage.
Regards,
Stan
Christians here and elsewhere like to refer to later non-christian writers but nobody is known to have written anything about Jesus of Nazareth during his alleged lifetime whether jewish or not, and the later-written gospels don't read as witness accounts but as (differing) narratives. And how useful are witness-accounts to miracles anyway judging from more modern examples. And if for instance people actually rose from their graves and wandered around Jerusalem at the time of Jesus' crucifiction as recorded in the gospels then you'd expect somebody else might have recorded that amazing thing at the time. And if that did happen then rising from the dead can't be some obvious prove of Jesus' divinity as many christians claim it must be.
"So the cross is about as Christian as Christmas-- basically pagan -- with only church tradition transforming it into something Christian"
Given that we have multiple attestations from both friends and enemies that Jesus was crucified, and archeological evidence that crucifixion was usually done with the arms outstretched (requiring a crossbeam), that gives a good justification for why the tradition exists.
Also notice that Christians didn't start using the cross as a symbol until generations after crucifixion ended. It was so horrible and offensive that Romans actively avoided describing it—thus Tacitus' use of the euphemism "extreme penalty". (Echos of "final solution.") It seems that the earliest Christians avoided it for the same reason. (Can you see a modern group adopting the electric chair, hangman's noose or guillotine as a symbol?)
It wasn't adopted because it was a pagan symbol, but because that's how crucifixions—including Jesus'—were usually done. Furthermore, Jesus had used the cross as a symbol for setting aside our lives for a higher purpose.
"Going by the seasonal indications, Christ was probably born in early October"
I had also heard "Spring" because typically sheep where only kept in the fields overnight at lambing time. But the sheep kept at Bethlahem were apparently used for temple sacrifices and were kept in the fields all the time. When combined with other information, it seems that he was born sometime between October and early December.
Very few Christians think that he was actually born on December 25th. Those that do haven't learned about the history of the Christmas celebration yet, and that nobody knows exactly when he was born.
Why is not Jesus a woman? God and his alter ego, the Holy Spirit, does not have DNA. Jesus would have inherited the DNA from his mother, making him a clone of her. How is this possible. Oh yeah, MAGIC.
Anonymous 1:20 said...
"Jesus was born to die as the final sacrifice for sinful atonement. "
to which Anonymous 1:42 responded...
"There are plenty of other people who gave their lives for others. Jesus is not unique in that regard."
On the contrary, Jesus, who was both God and man, is completely unique in this regard because Jesus was and is the FINAL sacrifice required by God for one to receive Salvation. Other people who gave their lives for others may be noble and worthy of high regard, but their death is in no way connected with God's plan of providing redemption and forgiveness of sin. Only Jesus' death provided that.
3:15 AM - Wow, you seem to know a lot about the mind of this god and its agenda! Does he speak to you directly?
I wonder what there is in italy that has this athesists so scared anyway?
"....Only Jesus' death provided that." according to myth.
The Vatican is no better than a tax-haven and a pedo-haven!
.... that Italy should close down since they allowed that rump of the Papal States to remain.
Jesus D'Nazereth was simply a human. Nothing more, nothing less.
Eric Clapton is God. Why, because someone said so a long time ago.
Elvis is King - I see'd i'm sitting on a throne eating a double-double-whopper in Macs so he's surely divine coz he's rizzen Man!! Praiz the King! Alaloooolyah!
Jesus was Robin Hood in an earlier incarnation.
Yes Jesus and Robin were similar folk heroes - both had a following of chosen men, and lived outside normal society in simple conditions. Both helped the poor and defied the authorities. Even their prominent female associate had the initials MM - Mary Magdalene and Maid Marian.
And their hometowns began with "N" - Nazareth and Nottingham.
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