Atheist Billboards Stir Debate in Florida
We read:
"Atheists of Florida, a group that advocates the separation of church and state, put up five signs Wednesday in Lakeland, targeting the area’s devout Christian population, MyFoxTampaBay.com reported.
Members of the organization's Lakeland chapter say they aren’t looking to convert Christians to atheism, but send a message this Fourth of July that atheists are Americans, too.
"There's quite a strong representation of religion out here and we feel that this is really where the message should be," Atheists of Florida president John Kieffer told the TV station.
The billboards read "one nation... indivisible," excluding the phrase "under God." The reference to God in the Pledge of Allegiance was added by federal law in 1954, on Flag Day.
One of the billboards stands across from a VFW Post, and Vietnam veteran David Kissell told the station he thinks it's a disgrace to our country. "Our nation was formed under God and its principles, and it's a shame we allow this to happen in our neighborhoods," Kissell said.
Source
64 comments:
Every so often, we see members of the God-less Left trying to destroy any semblance of religion in this country. Apparently, they would prefer all of us to be members of a cult, as they are. It's time we brought back public hangings.
Public hangings? Is that some kind of joke or are you a member of KKK or maybe an advocate of the infamous Inquisition?
Billboard companies aren't required to publish every billboard just like. This isn't a free speech issue, if you don't like the billboard complain to the billboard company. Have Christian businesses tell them that they will never buy a billboard from them until that hateful atheist message is removed.
Or you know what? why don't Christians pool their money, and buy a billboard featuring Stalin, Che Guevara and Castro and write a headline like "Atheism = Communism." Or "Atheists Hate America." The statements are generalizations, but if the secular-nazis can play their games, so can the faithful.
Or perhaps, both! Remember, the KKK was started by Democrats.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free...."
If people fear each other's ads and billboards so much that they feel they have to propagate exaggerations, mis-information and even pure lies, as is sugeested in these comments, then what a sad world of "free-speech" we have become!
Interesting, please notice the first post, "God-less Left" comment. Not all atheist are/were left-wing. Ayn Rand, who was a very outspoken atheist, was also more conservative that most of today's conservatives. First poster, I think I see a bias on your part...
This republic as formed by Jefferson, Madison, John Adams, etc., was formed to keep religion, especially the Church of England, out of our government.
This republic as formed by Jefferson, Madison, John Adams, etc., was formed to keep religion, especially the Church of England, out of our government.
No Bob, it wasn't. The restriction on religion in government is, at best, a barrier that a church or denomination not control the government.
What people like you believe in is the impossible task of requiring people to leave their religious beliefs - beliefs that are protected by the Constitution - at the doorsteps of any government building or agency.
The Founding Fathers were against a church controlled government. They were for individuals expressing their beliefs in actions and votes within government.
Good for the atheists. It's called free speech. If other religions put up similar banners, fine...good for them. Just don't suppress my right to religious freedom. "Freedom of religion, and freedom from religion".
Perfect solution Bobby 3:14.
Thanks 9:58 AM, I try.
"Heretical views arise when the truth is uncertain, and it is only when the truth is uncertain that censorship is invoked." [Bertrand Russell]
Do Christians have the same civil rights as so-called christians?
10:50PM of course just begs a question that millions have died for over the centuries, often quite painfully!
Let's see. Tens of thousands of churches with "inspirational religious signs out front". Three atheist signs in Florida. Is your faith so fragile that you cannot tolerate three signs? Assholes, the whole lot of you.
And Booby proposes to erect anti-atheist signs that contain nothing but lies and deceit. How so typical of an adman, whose business is nothing but lies and deceit. Still living off the government, Booby?
Socialists hate religion because they want to be treated like living gods, and let's face it, it's not easy to be a living god when most people worship a real God. Which is why atheist activists are doing everything they can to undermine that belief.
Pretty sure atheists are trying to destroy the idea of God because you are all delusional sheeple who disguise yourself as good people because you go to church on sundays. You're just as godless as the atheists themselves.
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
Yes Bobby, because stating a belief like this billboard is doing is identical to inflammatory, lying, hate speech.
I'm sorry you had to know that atheists exist, Bobby. Maybe instead of spreading hate speech with your pulled resources, you could just build a tunnel connecting your houses to your church so you'll never have to go outside again and be exposed to someone else's opinion.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
Misattributed quote, but still so very true.
Wow, who would have ever thought that a single advertisement could bring down religion. What a pussy you god must be that it can't even defend itself by throwing around a few lightning bolts to destroy the billboard. And for those who follow this pussy god to be so unsure of their beliefs that they need to go hang those who put up the ad speak to the uncertainty and double they must feel about their beliefs.
"Pretty sure atheists are trying to destroy the idea of God because you are all delusional sheeple who disguise yourself as good people because you go to church on sundays. You're just as godless as the atheists themselves."
---Nonsense, most people who believe in God consider themselves sinners. Are some people who go to church godless? Perhaps, although every group has people that show up just be see and be seen. I'm sure your secular side has plenty of people that show up for the free drinks and food, or to meet liberal chicks that are more likely to put out.
But I'm willing to bet that most people who go to church worship or pay tribute to something greater than themselves or the estate.
I find it so funny when I see that the same people who ridicule religion have crying fits over the BP oil spill and those "poor birds" covered with oil. Your kind loves worshiping the creation, sometimes to the point of eco-terrorism. God is dead and meat is murder, right?
By the way, I am nobody's sheep. I believe in God and pick and choose from the bible at will. I don't go to Church, don't claim to be perfect or holier than thou, don't give a damn if you don't believe. However, I do not accept the forced secularization of America and I'm very aware of what groups like Barry Lynn's Americans for the Separation of Church and State are trying to do.
"Forced secularization of America"... Good grief you need a history book. Badly. Of course, the only power religion has is that of lying; not exactly the best super power around when you're trying to convince people of your honesty and integrity.
Bobby 3:39:
(1) Hitler wasn't an atheist. National Socialism did not suppress religion in any way. The Catholic Church in Nazi Germany was free to operate as it wished. Ever hear of the "Reichskonkordat"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat
German anti-semitism and the Holocaust had nothing to do with 'atheism' and everything to do with good German Christians reading "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" and believing in the blood libel.
Don't take my word for it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism#WWI_to_the_eve_of_the_WWII
Don't even take Wiki's word for it. Check their references, do some research.
(2) I will not deny that totalitarisn Communist states were both horrific abusers of human rights that mandated state-sponsored atheism. I still think you've got the causal relationship reversed: they were atheists because of a prior commitment to communism. They weren't communists because they were atheists. And the human rights abuses also were a result of political ideology.
That being said, I will admit that being an atheist does not guarantee you will be a moral person. There are morally good atheists. There are morally bad atheists. There are morally good theists. They are morally bad theists.
Similar human rights abuses routinely occured in non-communist states during the Cold War, where atheism wasn't at play.
(3) But the question isn't: do theists and atheists do bad things? The question is: Is there actually a God? The evidence points to 'no'. The consequences of this fact are immaterial to its truth.
Religion will not survive in an environment where alternatives such as science and logic are allowed. Religion has no future among thinking people.
The real shame is that "Vietnam veteran Dave Kissell" doesn't have an appreciation for our right of free speech. I appreciate his service. It's just a damn shame he doesn't have the slightest understanding of what he was supposed to be protecting.
Every time I see one of those obnoxious billboards that says " 'We need to talk.' God" I want to pay for one that says, " 'Don't presume to speak on my behalf.' God"
Interesting - the best argument against religion is the fact that the most intolerant, hate-filled posts in this thread are those by a "Christian".
The "Christian God" has all the traits of a mass shared-belief with no actual factual substance, and has none of the traits of something that actually exists. Obviously, religion exists - and it is social mechanism or tool that can be used for good or ill depending on how it is wielded. But does "God" exist? No honest person aware of human fallibility and human history can answer in the affirmative - the evidence simply isn't there.
Sorry, Bobby, while "just believe me" may be enough foundation for your worldview, some of us require just a bit more substance.
"Every so often, we see members of the God-less Left trying to destroy any semblance of religion in this country. "
The idea that the nation should be "indivisible" is offensive that those who it would rather be "under god"
Bobby invents his own history, as he invents his own reality; neither of which can be backed by evidence and truth. Though Bobby may be able to cloak fascism in his religio-political blended jacket-of-choice, ultimately you can not have freedom when ancient tribal supernatural beliefs influence the governing body. Bobby's straw man blanket statements and jingoistic rhetoric are trademark examples.
As the article states, "The billboards read 'one nation... indivisible', excluding the phrase 'under God'. The reference to God in the Pledge of Allegiance was added by federal law in 1954, on Flag Day."
Right... it was added as a result of Cold War McCarthy-era paranoia. It was pure PROPAGANDA, the intent of which was to indoctrinate America's children... to plant and nurture the idea (so they would grow-up with it in-place) that we were 'different from' and 'better than' them-thar dirty, fithy, 'godless' commie-pinko-rat-bastards. Implant fear and divisiveness... an 'us vs. them' mind-set... that's the ticket, eh? That's the way of the Christ-cult... isn't it?
'Under God' in the pledge was unconstitutional THEN... it's still unconstitutional NOW... just like 'In God We Trust' on our coinage and currency. But in the '50s, paranoia and religious fervor trumped the Constitution... and now, toxic, drooling, malignant stupidity establishes that as 'legal precedent'.
Bobby presumes that atheists actually believe in God, but don't want him to have the power.
He's absolutely deluded.
Why can't Bobby think outside of the bubble of religious belief? It never occurs to him that it's possible that someone can not believe in any gods at all.
To the other "anonymous" who advocated public hangings:
Try it and you might very well start another civil war - only this time it will be the godless and moderate religious against you psychotic Christian Talibums.
An anonymous said "Wow, who would have ever thought that a single advertisement could bring down religion. What a pussy you god must be that it can't even defend itself by throwing around a few lightning bolts to destroy the billboard. And for those who follow this pussy god to be so unsure of their beliefs that they need to go hang those who put up the ad speak to the uncertainty and double they must feel about their beliefs."
But god does a good job of knocking kitschy statues of jesus per this weblink:
http://www.geekosystem.com/touchdown-jesus-lightning/
Taking unnecessary and unwanted references to invisible super-beings out of public expression and policy is certaily a good idea. Best I can tell, all the gods are products of the human imagination. All they are really good for is to divide us among ourselves. The sooner our society can get away from believing that mythology is true, the sooner we can advance for the good of all of us.
I suppose that the numerous accounts of child rape and physical abuse by catholic religious, and the beating, sexual and mental abuse practiced by Morons and other Christian sects is all "for the good of our souls". No doubt Bobby will reply that these people aren't "real Christians", but what was his supposed god doing all the time these events went on?
who cares what atheists spout? they're the product of garbage in, garbage out.
Anonymous said...
Public hangings? Is that some kind of joke or are you a member of KKK or maybe an advocate of the infamous Inquisition?
=============================
Yes Spain surely should not have been prosecuting Christians that way, however they did.
I'm sure atheistic communism with their 140 million murdered have hung more than any KKK by a factor of a 1000 or more.
I notice the ads by christians targeting Muslims were taken down within 48 hours. What are the specific rules on this? I say let people put whatever they want on ads.
why do "scientists" believe in invisible life on other planets? let us see proof, ah but you have none do you?
Scientists don't even have any proof or idea of how life started. REAL Science means "to know" not "to guess"
I'm shocked this blog is attracting so many Huffington Post types, perhaps they're lost?
"Bobby presumes that atheists actually believe in God, but don't want him to have the power. "
---No, I did not say they believe in God, I say they are jealous of people who believe in God. Why else would they fight against religion so much? If you're a happy atheist then it doesn't matter whether people agree with you or not, but since many atheists seem to freak out everytime the president says "God Bless America," it's rather obvious that the removal of religion from the public square and eventual banishment is the ultimate choice.
Here's an article about the similarities between Nazi-Germany and Obama-USA.
http://www.christianear.com/similarities-between-america-nazi-germany
As for the Catholic church priest scandal, so what? Are you saying children don't get molested in Cuba, China, Vietnam and the USSR? Pedophiles go where the kids are, that's why they're likely to become teachers, pediatricians, priests, etc. Of course, since teaching is not a religion, the liberal media doesn't go bananas every time a teacher sleeps with a kid or teenagers.
Anyone here who has the words "all atheists are" is immediately wrong. No group is always together on everything. And by the way guys/gals, just because we don't believe in a God doesn't mean we're not people. For some reason,you sheep automatically jump on the "Atheists are the devil's offspring" bandwagon really quickly. And to the cult comment, Mormons are part of a cult, atheists are not. So go kill people for religion and shit, you great "blessed" people.
"REAL Science means "to know" not "to guess"" -- No, fuckwit, science is a method of answering questions with evidence and reason.
Bobby wonders why athiests spend so much energy fighting religion, but if he had a principled belief in freedom he'd have no problem understanding. You poor sad delusioned pathetic ignorant waste of life, Bobby.
Bobby said:
"I believe in God and pick and choose from the bible at will."
Which means Bobby makes it up as he goes and his Christianity conforms to his prejudices and vices.
Really nice. Obviously he has no need for god.
"I say they are jealous of people who believe in God." - Bobby
I won't speak for anyone but myself, but I am as jealous of Christians as I am of zombies. Not very.
The site you link to is BS at its freshest and finest. Obama is only mentioned in 2 of the 25 points brought up. Everything else is nonsense. Why is it so hard for Christians to accept that Hitler was a Roman Catholic.
Maybe if the church was actually trying to stop these Pedo-priests there wouldn't be a scandal.
So, Bob, you going to stop with the BS or are you not done blithering on.
This billboard doesn't express any hostility toward religion, it just reminds people of the original pledge of Allegiance - which didn't require expressing a belief in God. I appreciate David Kissel's service during the Vietnam war, but he fails to understand his country if he considers this sign a disgrace. The founding fathers, if they had wanted the nation to be founded on Christian principles, would have made a statement as to that in the constitution. And even if they HAD, they were not gods and should not be considered infallible dispensers of perfect knowledge of how our country should operate. They showed themselves clearly to NOT be infallible in the way they treated African Americans.
So what is really the issue here? Why are Christians, who constitute the largest religious group in our nation, ANGRY that people who believe differently have respecfully voiced their beliefs via billboards?
I'm an admirer of Jesus as a philospher, and I'm an atheist, and I don't see anything "Christ like" in the ugly reactions by christians to these billboards. The only people Jesus was ever scornful of were the Pharisees - who insisted on praying in public. Jesus told his followers to go home and pray in private instead. He was never hostile towards or about people who didn't believe what he wanted his followers to believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwBqGpQ1RDU
"Bobby wonders why athiests spend so much energy fighting religion, but if he had a principled belief in freedom he'd have no problem understanding. "
---Don't lecture me about freedom, I'm a libertarian, I have more freedom in my little finger than you do in your entire body.
It's people like you who hate freedom, I know your god hating kind, I've read about Richard Dawkins who would love to put people in jail for teaching their children about God. I know how you people hate the holidays and want to refer to the Christmas break as a winter break. You people treat religion like it's pornography, and you lecture me about freedom?
Atheists are a bunch of insecure fascists that need everyone to be like themselves.
no actually "science" means "to know" learn something moron.
"Don't lecture me about freedom, I'm a libertarian, I have more freedom in my little finger than you do in your entire body. "
Which means you don't give a shit about anybody but yourself. Stop taking my tax dollars, you unemployed leach.
to meet liberal chicks that are more likely to put out.
Ha! I grew up in this area and the Southern Baptists put out more regularly than the areligious ones. Someone doesn't pay attention to the world around them, Bobby.
First, atheists are not part of a cult, that's a stupid assumption. Hitler was a christian; in his book "Mein Kompf" he wrote that he was doing the Lord's work by eliminating the Jews. Stalin and Castro may be atheists, but they are also ruthless military dictators who force the people to conform to their will and kill those who dont obey them (sorta like god). They force people to reject any faith they have had and put their pictures in their homes, also like how many christian nations in the past have forced out people of different faiths (Catholics, Jews, Muslims). "In the name of God" has been invoked all too frequently when it came to war and violence and genocide in the past, too. The KKK was formed by Democrats, but Democrats in the mid to late 19th century held the beliefs and views of many modern republicans and would today be considered republicans. Remember that Nixon and FDR played roles in the changing views of their respective parties during their time. This is in response to all those comments that excluded the whole truth
Anonymous 6:19 said...
"To the other "anonymous" who advocated public hangings:
Try it and you might very well start another civil war - only this time it will be the godless and moderate religious against you psychotic Christian Talibums."
All you Godless cretins had better hope we don't. There are far more of us who believe, than of you who have nothing to believe in other than what you're told. And when the war comes, i would "gladly" volunteer to be the hangman!
Did any of you morons whining about how bad those atheists are for putting up a few billboard signs actually read the article? It says "The reference to God in the Pledge of Allegiance was added by federal law in 1954". You people do a great job of completely missing the point.
jparenti said...
"It never occurs to him that it's possible that someone can not believe in any gods at all."
Umm actually, its not possible. There has to be a top of the food chain. If you don't believe that it's God, then its something else, man, mother nature, something.
Sounds to me like jparenti is either dishonest or intellectually lazy.
Uhm... no... there doesn't have to be a 'top of the food chain'. There can be several different things that are high up there, but are too varied to properly compare. If you mean what came first, well, yah, obviously SOMETHING had to either come first or exist eternally, but if you don't believe that is god... then you don't believe that is god. It's pretty tautological.
As far as the hanging poster... "Nothing to believe in other than what you are told" May I please ask, weren't you TOLD about Christianity? Or did you just pop out of the womb reciting the lord's prayer? The only difference in beliefs between any given atheist and any given christian is belief in Yahweh. However, no-one needs to be told about not believing in god. You HAVE to be told about Yahweh to believe in him (Either by men or so-called divine revelation). This isn't even the pot calling the kettle black. This is the pot calling the light-bulb black.
"---Don't lecture me about freedom, I'm a libertarian, I have more freedom in my little finger than you do in your entire body."
Then why are you so upset about this billboard? Should atheists not have freedom of expression?
No one here said religious people should be put in jail; you're the one insisting on censorship. Some freedom-lover you are.
The Christians here and in the original report have the same paranoid psychology re some innocuous words as the muslims who felt so threatened by a few mere cartoons. Fortunately the secular US law prevents most christians today from reacating as violently as in the past, but it's still very worrying.
Why are the True Believers getting so bent out of shape? Is their faith so fragile that the mere thought of god not existing threatens to shatter their belief? Perhaps some of them are afraid that if they open their minds a bit and critically examine their beliefs that they'll find that they don't need their religion as much. Knowlegde is poison to religion.
"Then why are you so upset about this billboard? Should atheists not have freedom of expression?"
---Did I ask the government to censor them? No. Am I suing them in court to take down that billboard? No. Do I not have a first amendment right to protest against things that offend me? Yes. Is that anti-freedom? No.
Besides, atheists have freedom of expression, I don't see the government going after Bill Maher, one of their greatest champions. They have the right to buy a billboard and the community has the right to tell that billboard company how to do their business. Then the billboard company has to choose whether it makes more business sense to offend 90%+ of the people who believe in God versus the 10% that doesn't believe in God.
Get it? It's supply and demand, it's the reason why liberal talk radio like Air America is bankrupt while conservative talk radio makes billions in profit. You want to offend Christians? You better make sure there's no chance in hell they'll ever buy your product. Comedy Central is a great example of a network that can offend Christians without losing revenue.
However, a billboard company in a mostly Christian area like Lake City, Florida, has a lot to lose by catering to the atheists.
let them post it, they're on a losing side with no hope, remember they came here accidently and have no purpose in life.
Anon826, What's your purpose? To raise boys so that can be raped by your priests? To be hypocrites in everything that your do? To be consumed with hate with those who are not like you?
Don't lecture me on purpose. I have more purpose in my little finger than you do in your entire body.
"To raise boys so that can be raped by your priests?"
---If you read Ann Coulter you'd realize that you're more likely to be molested by a secular public school teacher than by a Priest.
Bobby, your last statement almost made me upchuck my breakfast. Why are you an apologist for priest rape? Does the thought of it give you a thrill?
"Why are you an apologist for priest rape? "
---Nonsense, I'm simply not letting the anti-Catholic bigots malign an entire religion just because of a few bad priests.
If Secularism was seen as a religion, you would find far more scandals in that world than in the world of Catholic priests.
Of course people like you probably think "oh, if the priests were allowed to marry then we wouldn't have these problems." Really? There are plenty of married pedophiles priests, teachers, etc, that disprove that theory.
It's not the individual rapist priests that spoil the catholic church. At worst, it just means the church has bad screening processes. But that makes them irresponsible, not evil.
What makes the catholic church evil is that they try to cover it up. If the church was half as good as it claimed to be, they would immediately excommunicate each pedo-priest, both for violating what they believe is good, and for the safety of their followers. But they don't do this. They don't give a shit about what is good, or the people who put their trust in them.
But for me, what takes the catholic church from evil to sheer cartoon supervillainy, is that they just don't care that people know this. They are now OPENLY evil, not caring at all about people knowing they did this (Or else they'd try to change for PR reasons, if nothing else). If that kind of unapologetic abuse of power isn't evil, sir, I don't know what is.
"There are plenty of married pedophiles priests"
Catholic priests are not allowed to marry. So plenty = 0.
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