Trouble for that old-fashioned religion
Fire, brimstone and salvation are just SO uncool these days, apparently:
"A Baptist pastor has admitted telling Jewish leaders that Jews were "going to hell" and faced a fate "worse than the Holocaust" because they had not accepted Jesus as their saviour.
But despite Mr Harris's attempt to clarify his remarks, Mr Alhadeff said he was shocked to hear the leader of a Christian congregation speak so bluntly. "It was a chilling experience," he said.
Mr Harris said his comments were made in a private meeting "in my lounge room" and admitted using the word "holocaust" but said it was Biblical language. "I explained that I love the Jewish people very much and that some awful times were coming for them but I did not wish that upon them at all."
Source
17 comments:
"Mr Alhadeff said he was shocked to hear the leader of a Christian congregation speak so bluntly. "It was a chilling experience," he said."
I hope I'm not supposed to be shocked by this. In fact, from a Biblical perspective, that really is the right response. Biblically speaking, one who rejects Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour will not go to Heaven. It's a simple message that has been preached since the beginining of Christianity and is completely documented in the New Testament.
The sad truth is that not enough people understand this.
Yep. The Jewish leaders haven't changed their tune about Jesus…
Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death. They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward.
(Matthew 26:59-60a NAS95S)
Pilate summoned the chief priests and the rulers and the people, and said to them, “You brought this man to me as one who incites the people to rebellion, and behold, having examined Him before you, I have found no guilt in this man regarding the charges which you make against Him. No, nor has Herod, for he sent Him back to us; and behold, nothing deserving death has been done by Him.
(Luke 23:13-15 NAS95S)
…even in the face of miracles where Jesus proved he was The Messiah:
Jesus raised Lazarus, then…
Therefore many of the Jews who came to Mary, and saw what He had done, believed in Him. But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done.
Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” … So from that day on they planned together to kill Him.
(John 11:45-48, 53 NAS95S)
Of course, even in the Old Testament, the Jews (who of all peoples should know better) repeatedly disobeyed God.
The LORD said to Moses, “How long will this people spurn Me? And how long will they not believe in Me, despite all the signs which I have performed in their midst? I will smite them with pestilence and dispossess them, and I will make you into a nation greater and mightier than they.”
(Numbers 14:11-12 NAS95S)
They certainly cannot base their claims of correctness on the simple fact that they're Jews.
But when he [John The Baptist] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
(Matthew 3:7-10 NAS95S)
They do not need to look at the New Testament to see what this pastor was talking about. In order to deny that Jesus was the Messiah, that God requires obedience, and that God will punish unbelievers, they have to disregard parts of the Old Testament too.
Ahhh, you gotta love all the tolerance pouring out of "the religion of peace". And people that build their world view around these ancient fairy tales wonder why the rest of us look at them funny.
Off your meds again ed?
I have two questions and I ask them both honestly curios about the answers:
1. Where in traditional Christian doctrine does it actually say that those who do not accept Jesus will go to Hell, and
2. This guy clearly believed what he was saying - so what? As I understand it, don't most religions believe more or less the same thing - if you're not one of us you're going to hell?
So if I think someone is about to fall off a cliff, I shouldn't shout at them to get their attention because it might shock them?
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
That's where.
also try John 3:16-17
Thank you Anon.
Now, let's look at that.
Jesus said, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
He also said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
The first (John 3:16) says only that believers do not perish but have everlasting life. The second (John 14:6) says only that nobody comes to the Father but by Him.
I'm not convinced that either of these say that those who do not believe in Jesus go to hell. The most one could say is that in the first quote non-believers are not mentioned and in the second to get to the Father one must do so 'by' Him. How exactly that might occur is not clear. It is also not clear whether not coming to the Father = hell from that quote. Care to elaborate?
There are plenty of passages which talk about hell and salvation in the New Testament, but none of them are quite so clear and summarize quite so easily as this one:
"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
(Revelation 20:11-15 NAS95S)
Other passages in Revelation clarify that the "Book of Life" is Jesus' list of those who have accepted his sacrifice on our behalf. For example, Revelation 13:8.
Nave's Topical Bible lists the following verses under the category of Hell, The Future Home of the Wicked: Psalm 9:17; Proverbs 5:5; 9:13, 15-18; 15:24; 23:13, 14; Isaiah 30:33; 33:14; Matthew 3:12; 5:29, 30; 7:13, 14; 8:11, 12; 10:28; 13:30, 38-42, 49, 50; 16:18; 18:8, 9, 34, 35; 22:13; 25:28-30, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 3:17; 16:23-26, 28; Acts 1:25; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6-23; Revelation 2:11; 9:1, 2; 11:7; 14:10, 11; 19:20; 20:10, 15; 21:8
Nave's also says to see the category Wicked, Punishment of, but that's so many references that I'm not even going to bother posting the list.
Overall, the Bible makes it crystal clear that there are only two groups of people, those who will be with God, and those who will not. There is no in between group. The quote above from Revelation makes the final destination of the unsaved clear. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
(Romans 6:23 NAS95S)
and "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
(Matthew 7:13-14 NAS95S)
And finally, let's be clear about who qualifies for the saved group, to be written into the Lamb's Book of Life:
"Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
(John 3:3 NAS95S)
In fact, the entire passage of John 3:1-21 is a discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus on the topic of salvation. You should read the whole thing.
Anon 3:09,
I've recovered from the flu quite nicely, thank you. I'm really glad to be off those meds. Pseudoephedrine did horrible things to my ability to sleep. I'm much more alert now. :-)
I was just pointing out that there were those in Jesus' day who opposed him even though He performed miracles right in front of them. It's not at all surprising that there are still people today who hold exactly the same position of religious authority who still reject Him.
And if you're thinking anti-Semitism, I should point out that if anti-Semitism was the motivation behind my comment, then I would be required to throw out all the New Testament books written by jewish authors. As far as I know, doing so would leave only Luke and Acts. Everything else was written by Jews. And most of those books were written by Paul, who, until he became a christian, thought exactly as the Jewish leaders quoted in this article; except for the part where Paul was hunting down christians and killing them. In fact, he was the leader in the charge against christianity.
Don't stop at John 3:17. Continue through to the end of the passage at verse 21 to get the context:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. (NIV)
Does that answer your question?
Ed
Thanks for that.
Can I clarify:
1) your quote from Revelation seems to suggest that you believe that the dead will be judged according to their deeds. Is that correct?
2) The same quote from Revelation suggests that there are multiple books - one of which is presumably the book of life of the Lamb. Is this right and what are the others?
3) Sin = death, ok, I'm with you there. Is not accepting Jesus = sin?
4) Anon 6:31 - I understand belive = not condemned and not believe = condemned. Is there any room for a third group? Are those who are completely ignorant of Jesus in the first group or the second and, if the second, are they condemned simply because of their ignorance?
Anon,
Those are good quality questions.
"1) your quote from Revelation seems to suggest that you believe that the dead will be judged according to their deeds. Is that correct?"
Yes, the works of both the save and unsaved will be judged. The sins of the unsaved earn the death penalty. The sins of the saved also deserve the death penalty, but that was paid by Jesus Christ. Even so, 1st Corinthians points out that the saved will still have to answer for their actions:
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
(1Corinthians 3:12-15 NAS95S)
"2) The same quote from Revelation suggests that there are multiple books - one of which is presumably the book of life of the Lamb. Is this right and what are the others?"
Yes. If you look at the quote again, you'll notice that the other books are records of what we've done.
"3) Sin = death, ok, I'm with you there. Is not accepting Jesus = sin?"
Not as such. Sin is essentially an instance of disobeying God. Anything less than 100% obedience separates us from God and earns the death penalty. Our problem is that there is absolutely no one who meets that standard (other than Jesus who is also God).
If you look back to Genesis 2 and 3, you'll see that God gave Adam and Eve only one commandment: Don't eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Yet as soon as they committed that single sin, everything changed and they were separated from God.
What Jesus did was to actually take the penalty for sin (death) upon himself so we wouldn't have to pay that penalty. Right after Adam and Eve sinned, God established a pattern of allowing for some other being to suffer the penalty in our place when He killed an animal (probably a lamb) to cover their sins.
The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
(Genesis 3:21 NAS95S)
When He established the nation of Israel, He began by requiring them to sacrifice a lamb while still in Egypt as a substitute to indicate to the angel of death that they were obedient to God and not to be killed as the angel was sent through Egypt to kill the firstborn, again, temporarily covering their sins through the death of an animal. Thus, the lamb slaughtered in this case and subsequent memorial celebrations was called the Passover Lamb. (Exodus 12:1-34)
After Israel had left Egypt, God instituted a series of sacrifices which they were to perform to cover their sins. Unfortunately, they had to do so regularly because mere animals could not cover sins permanently. (Leviticus 1-7)
When God decided that the time was right, He sent Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice, one which did not need to be repeated. God even arranged for Him to be killed at the appropriate time for the Passover Feast, following the regulations He laid down for the Jews, including no broken bones in the sacrificial lamb. That is why Jesus is called the Lamb of God in Revelation and John.
The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
(John 1:29 NAS95S)
When He [Jesus, described as a Lamb] had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
(Revelation 5:8-13 NAS95S)
And Hebrews describes Jesus' sacrifice as a one-time deal which is fully sufficient to pay for sins like this:
Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He [Jesus], having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
(Hebrews 10:11-14 NAS95S)
To put this another way, every one of us is suffering from a fatal disease. You could think of it as cancer, AIDS, or some genetic defect such as a heart condition, etc. No matter which disease you think of though, it is the disease which is killing us. Jesus has provided a cure for that disease so that we can live, but it is up to us to either accept or reject the cure. Some people reject the cure hoping that there's some other cure which they might prefer, but the Bible clearly says that there is no other cure.
“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
(Acts 4:12 NAS95S)
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”
(John 14:6 NAS95S)
So it's not that rejecting Jesus = sin so much as rejecting the only cure for sin will allow that sin to kill you. You can allow Jesus to pay the price for sin (death) or you can choose to pay it yourself.
Your 4th question is also good, but this post is already long and I need to get some work done. I'll have to answer it later.
HTH
The lake of fire is the second death. not an everlasting hell.
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; … These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(Matthew 25:41-46 NAS95S)
"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment."
(Hebrews 6:1-2 NAS95S)
In this passage, the author of Hebrews is encouraging the reader to move on from the basics, not simply going over the same ground again, and again, and again. One of the basics he lists is "eternal judgement", which is another way of saying at least hell. (You could also argue that eternal reward is also the result of a favorable judgement.)
"when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
(2Thessalonians 1:7b-9 NAS95S)
They cannot pay the penalty eternally if they are annihilated.
Revelation also states that the Lake of Fire is a place of eternal torment:
"he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night,"
(Revelation 14:10-11a NAS95S)
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
(Revelation 20:10 NAS95S)
Notice that this last verse states an event which occurs immediately prior to the dead being judged which I quoted above. (Revelation 21:11-15) Those who deserve it, are thrown into the same punishment as the devil, the antichrist, the false prophet, and anyone who worshipped them (the latter is described in Rev. 14).
"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED."
(Mark 9:47-48 NAS95S)
If the one receiving punishment is annihilated, then as far as they're concerned, the worm and fire have ceased. Furthermore, if everyone being punished is eventually annihilated, then the worm and fire of this verse will have ceased to have any effect at all, and thus would have functionally died or been extinguished because there would be nothing for them to act on.
The Bible is crystal clear that some people will definitely suffer "forever and ever." As for the rest, while the words used imply annihilation (destruction, fire, etc.) those same words also apply to those clearly being punished forever and are almost always coupled with a word such as "eternal." Therefore, it is most reasonable to read these verses as describing hell as a place of eternal torment.
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